That good night: gift or punishment?

[obloquy]

The Ringwraiths were not houseless fear. They could still interact with physical objects, and their physical garments still found a surface to drape over, so there's no reason to believe they were truly immaterial. I think they simply had badly perverted hroar made invisible by the same magic that allowed The One Ring to confer invisibility.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by obloquy

H-I: When reading the Athrabeth, did you not get the impression that Andreth was reporting a belief that was not necessarily true? It seemed to me that she was relating a myth that was held by Men out of envy of the Elves. It has been a while since I've read it, now; however, as I recall, Finrod did not swallow her revelations on Man's fall whole

It did. But the reasoning is simple: the only text discussing the matter presents certain theory. Even if it is doubted by one of the participants, we have no other textually backed theory to lean on. We lean on what we have.

Besides, in the part discussing the destiny of men, just before he comes out with This then, I propound, was the errand of Men... etc, Finrod's heart 'leaps with joy' - an indication of recognition of truth.

It is not that hard to elaborate thence and get the essence of my posts above

Originally Posted by obloquy

The Ringwraiths were not houseless fear. They could still interact with physical objects, and their physical garments still found a surface to drape over, so there's no reason to believe they were truly immaterial. I think they simply had badly perverted hroar made invisible by the same magic that allowed The One Ring to confer invisibility.

Nail hit on the head, I daresay

[Lhunardawen]

A bit silly, but when I first read that conversation between Eowyn and WK, I thought WK was merely scaring the daylights out of Eowyn with no intention (nor capability, possibly) to make good his threat.

[davem]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The Ringwraiths were not houseless fear. They could still interact with physical objects, and their physical garments still found a surface to drape over, so there's no reason to believe they were truly immaterial. I think they simply had badly perverted hroar made invisible by the same magic that allowed The One Ring to confer invisibility.

Except Tolkien calls them Ringwraiths, & a wraith is defined by Dictionary.com as:

1:An apparition of a living person that appears as a portent just before that person's death.
2:The ghost of a dead person.
3:Something shadowy and insubstantial.

Definition 3 is the problem. Tolkien knew very well what the word wraith meant. As to their ability to impact the physical, that is a problem, but not beyond another, 'magical' explanation.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by davem

Except Tolkien calls them Ringwraiths, & a wraith is defined by Dictionary.com as:



Definition 3 is the problem. Tolkien knew very well what the word wraith meant. As to their ability to impact the physical, that is a problem, but not beyond another, 'magical' explanation.

I don't see any reason to quibble with Tolkien over a definition. It's true that he did not fully flesh out the details of his Nazgul, but I don't think they fall too far outside that definition for us to take issue with him. After all, many people would equate invisibility with insubstance anyway. That said, the fact is that the Ringwraiths were not wraiths in the strictest sense of the word. They could not pass through walls and they could wear clothing. Additionally, they had to rely on physical locomotion and were hampered by those same factors and forces that affect any physical Man or Elf. Although I've never seen it discussed, it seems to me that a true spirit's method of locomotion would be instantaneous, since I can't imagine what speed restrictions could be placed upon a disembodied consciousness.

Of course, I haven't spent much time in the spiritual realm, ROLF!!!!!!!

[Lhunardawen]

It's also inconceivable how mere spirits could fear water or even drown in it, if mere spirits are what the Nazgul are.

[alatar]

Been putting this one off for a while; been busy, been distracted, but anyway...here goes. And I'm hoping that this ties into the thread somehow.

My father, as stated earlier in this thread, lost his fight with cancer this summer. He remained at home to the end, and so I was able to be with him some of those last months and days. His body got progressively worse, but his mind stayed as sharp as ever. He realized that the tube that was feeding him was only feeding the cancer, and it gave him no comfort, and so one day he made a similar decision to that of King Elessar - to let go instead of trying to hold on to each drop of life.

That was a hard day, as I knew that at that point the clock was ticking, and it was only a matter of time - sometimes knowing biology isn't that fun. I think that he was concerned that if he didn't make that choice while he was still cognizant that he might get so debilitated that he would not be able to make his wishes known. Can you imagine that? It's like pulling the trigger on a gun where the bullet doesn't hit you until a week later. Also running through his head, besides being tired of his life, was that he was a burden to the family - more and more each day - and I think that he wanted to end that too.

Surely I wanted him to stay as long as he could, but also I respected his decision to leave. We never had one of those 'good bye' scenes like you see in movies, but we each knew what was happening. Maybe like Arwen, up to then I was like, "yes, it's terminal, but this is my father, whose family is long-lived, and we have many days/months/years ahead of us." It's like I knew, but was disconnected from the truth. He was dying, and soon would be dead. Gone. No more a voice on the phone or even a man lying in bed.

Reality showed up.

He let go, and less than a week later was gone. Like Aragorn, he made sure that his kingdom was in order before going. Unlike Aragorn, my father was leaving pain for either somewhere better or at least somewhere were pain did not exist.

I miss him now and then, but what makes me sad is knowing how much my children miss their 'pap.'

Sorry, but just had to go there as I can't help but sometimes relating this to Aragorn's decision.

[The 1,000 Reader]

I am sorry for your loss, Alatar.



You may not want to read my post, since it will offend some of you.



On the subject of death, I can't believe it to be a gift. Look at the world today. Is death something we look forward to? Do we hold celebrations for those who have died?(Not like the Day of the Dead, mind you.) Death is not something great, death is a malefactor.

If a man murdered my neighbor, would there be celebration? Would my neighbor still go around happily? No. He would no longer be able to do what he once did, to be with who he loved. His family would be distraught for all time and suffer from it. Death is more of a curse than anything. Even in Middle-Earth death was a malefactor. Take Aragorn's death. Though he passed on in peace and of old age his death still had a damaging effect on those around him; we all know the tale of Arwen. Theoden's death may have held honor and was prideful, but most of Rohan and Gondor felt only sadness. I believe Eru's gift had changed very much by the time men had entered the world.

Like I mentioned before, if my neighbor was killed there would be no celebration or happiness among the family, nor would his murderer feel bad. The man who murdered him would most likely be happy that he was dead. The man would not fear a higher presence. He would believe his victim to be gone forever and incapable of gaining revenge. To be honest, he would be right.

If a man was defending one that he loved and was killed, he would not be happy. He would be nothing more than a whisper on the wind who had failed to do what he had tried to accomplish. His loved one would die and their killer would most likely be joyful that they were no longer in the world.

I just can't see death as a gift. Sorry.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I just can't see death as a gift. Sorry.

I understand what you are saying, but see it in this context: Assume that the Middle Earth world as created by Eru exists. In this world Death is given as a gift to man by God as a release from the confines of the world, and somewhere it is stated that even the Powers will envy this freedom. Aragorn, in this world, lived his entire life by the dictates of Eru, unlike many of his Númenóreans ancestors. And at the end of his road he had the choice to continue the path that so long ago he had chosen, or to fall aside like Isildur and Ar-Pharazôn. Aragorn faced many trials, and this one was the the biggest and the last. By his decision to lay down his life, even though he was giving up some days, weeks, years, he validated his life and hopefully that of his offspring. Aragorn set an example as king, that even though he had everything to lose and nothing to gain, that in faith he would do the right thing. If he were truly going on to something better, why not 'sacrifice' the material for the spiritual (or whatever Eru had waiting)? Eru didn't make man to stay; we are to travel on. Aragorn took that last trip freely.

Somewhere in all of that I see Aragorn yet again denying the Ring - control, dominion and possession of people and things - for true freedom.

In the case of my father, each day was worse than the day before. It was a death by slices. Even the smallest sip from a cup of coffee, something that he probably drank for 60+ years, caused pain. Now, I'm not exactly sure as to his beliefs, but to him death was a release from all of the suffering, so in that context too it was a gift. And like Aragorn, he actively chose to lie down and let go.