And it slips through our fingers

[Folwren]

[QUOTE=alatar]I would disagree. Surely things change, yet if you read history we're still the same humans (or not) that we were thousands of years back. The Christian Bible shows many examples of less than civilized/immoral behavior that could be taking place today. [QUOTE]

I would say that we are changed...quite. We've gotten very much extremely perverse in just about everything that anyone does...and not only the non-religious people, but also those who claim to be Christians.

Yes, to be sure, we are humans, but more than just our morality or immoratily has changed. And...I was going to say more, but my sister-in-law is shoving me off of here, so I can't.

But I'll be back! ... Somehow.

-Folwren

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I would say that we are changed...quite. We've gotten very much extremely perverse in just about everything that anyone does...and not only the non-religious people, but also those who claim to be Christians.

Ever hear about someone named Caligula?

Today you hear/see an event in realtime that happens across the globe. The media, a bit bigger now than even a few decades back, shows you everything! And if that didn't shock you, they will show you everything+ tomorrow - just so that you will tune in and view the commercials.

Read the Old Testament of the Christian Bible, and see what fills God's book - one can only imagine what else happened that was not recorded (note that I mean no offence ). Wasn't Leviticus written as a result of what people may have had the tendency to do (or were doing, or did)?

[Holbytlass]

I don't see it as so much aligned with religion as just the way things are. All things come to an end..places, kingdoms, races and so forth. I suppose that's part of some scientific theory I couldn't name.
I also see it as Alatar pointed out that humans do tend to look back on things either in memory or stories (ie, history) with rose-colored glasses. Romanticizing the good and not dwelling on the bad parts.
In essence Tolkien did have to tie this story in with true history down to real life now. He being the author could (and did) write people and places as grander and better than the state of things he was living in his own life.

[Lathriel]

It always saddened me when I read the last few chapters of LOTR and came to realize that magic is truly leaving ME and the decay of many glorious things and places.
But I think this is exactly what life is about. Things can't always continue to be great and there are many examples in history.
To take an obvious example, The Roman Empire, it was great but it didn't last. However, something else will replace that which was lost. The renaisance (although it took some time) again helped the nations flourish. So it is only natural that certain things diminish. That is why LOTR can almost be seen as a historical book. It is because it stays true to these certain realities.

[Folwren]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

I don't see it as so much aligned with religion as just the way things are. All things come to an end..places, kingdoms, races and so forth. I suppose that's part of some scientific theory I couldn't name.

Good point. Extremely good. I have heard, though I have not seen a direct quote from Tolkien, so don't take it for granted, that he didn't want it to be allegorical.

I've never heard of Caligula, Alatar. Sorry.

The media do go around broadcasting things, but that's also what makes it so bad. Without the media, TV, horrible movies, perverse commercials, and whatever else you wish to add, everyday life and everyday people would be a lot better. We've receeded a long, long ways from real Christianity (and other moral things). The pioneers (I use 'em because someone mentioned them earlier in this thread) didn't go around dressed as we do, they didn't go around talking about the things we do, they didn't go around thinking like we do, they were probably ten times as smart as most of us. We've deteriorted a long way in a matter of two hundred years or so...

But then you might argue that we've also become a lot more efficient and smarter in the fact that we have tons of machines that do every little thing for us (even eat, in some cases) and our technology that we have now wasn't even dreamed of a hundred years ago...I think, though, that even these great accomplishments have helped to corrupt us.

We are yearning for immortality. That's what these life supporting machines in hospitals, all the drugs that are out, and just about everything else are made for. Of course, people don't use the term 'immortality', but all in all, that's what we're searching for. And wasn't that what caused the destruction of Numenor? Wasn't that what ended up ruining everyone?

Okay, I think this has actually strayed from the point of the thread. *sigh* I could start up my own thread, but I don't know if we want discussions like that here.

Did I answer anything you said, Alatar? Reading over the last few posts, and yours, I don't know that I did. But I've spent too much time typing here as it is. I'll come back later and say more if you think it necessary.

[Formendacil]

As far as "decline" goes, I have to agree with Alatar that as a technologically-skilled race, we are rising not declining. We've almost reached the levels of Valinor, perhaps.

I would, however, disagree with his statement that we are biologically "simply changing, as stated here:

Originally Posted by alatar

The historical view would be that the world is winding up, in regards to technology and knowledge, and a biological viewpoint would be that the world is simply changing. We might think that we're all that, but we haven't been here even a tenth of the time that the dinosaurs 'ruled the earth,' and just when was the last time you saw one of them boarding a tram?

Biologically, one could make the case (and I don't necessarily agree with it, I'm just playing devil's advocate...) that we are actually setting ourselves back biologically.

If you think about it, the abilities of our science to preserve our lives and make things liveable has made our biological bodies weaker. It has removed the pressures which kept our population down and weeded out the weaker individuals with undesireable (in a reproductive sense) traits. A few centuries ago, there were no severe asthmatics (they would die), no Type 1 diabetics (they died), no real allegeries, and obesity was a much rarer problem. On whole, the part of the human race that survived to adulthood and marriage was healthier than it is today.

That said, I'm not certain that a greater biological health means a great human health. After all, I'm one of those Type 1 Diabetics who would be dead.

Basically, my point is that one type of growth does not equal growth in all fields, and quite often leads to a decline in those fields. For instance, the growth of friendship between Gondor and Rohan led to the growth and prosperity of both populations, but it also led to the decline of the "high" knowledge of Gondor. And just as the defeat of Sauron lead to the growth of freedom and prosperity in Reunited Kingdom, it led to the decline of the Hobbits as men repopulated Eriador and (eventually) crowded the Halflings out.

Looking at the First Age, I think one can see similar parallels. The building of great, protected cities like Gondolin led to a flowering of art and peace, but it also led to a decline in the unity of the Elven kingdoms. And in another way, the decline in the health and population of the good people in Beleriand led to the rise of their relations with Valinor.

I guess it's a question of balance. As the evil of each Age is defeated and lost, so too must a good portion of the good. The imprisoning of Morgoth- the epitome of all evil, is balanced by the loss of the Elven kingdoms, massive Elven populations, most of Beleriand itself, and a decline in the great Elven art and technology in middle-earth. The destruction of the evil Numenoreans was balanced by the loss of Numenor itself. The defeat of Sauron and his separation from the One Ring was matched with a great decline in the power and influence of the Elven realms. His final defeat was met with an end of "Numenorean" Gondor and of Lothlorien and a true High Elven presence.

I guess one could say it is similar to the Christian view that it took the death of Jesus to match the sins of mankind.

A rambling Devil's Advocate,

~Michael A. Joosten - Formendacil~

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Biologically, one could make the case (and I don't necessarily agree with it, I'm just playing devil's advocate...) that we are actually setting ourselves back biologically.

I understand what you're trying to say, yet my point was that we are neither advancing nor retreating. I don't think that biologically our bodies are far from the caves, yet we live in really shiny cities and have been to the Moon. We are adapting slowly to our environment, or more likely adapting our environment to our liking.

After all, I'm one of those Type 1 Diabetics who would be dead.

Glad to have you around.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by alatar
I understand what you're trying to say, yet my point was that we are neither advancing nor retreating. I don't think that biologically our bodies are far from the caves, yet we live in really shiny cities and have been to the Moon. We are adapting slowly to our environment, or more likely adapting our environment to our liking.

Ah, is that your point? I can't really argue much with that, seeing as we aren't changed dramatically, but I would say that we have changed...for the worse.

Everything changes, except for the one who makes it so.

[Guinevere]

Very good points, Formendacil , Alatar and Elianna!

I would particularly like to know if this theme is ultimately religious

Here is what Tolkien wrote in letter #195

Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect "history" to be anything but a "long defeat" - though it contains (and in legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.

I rather share his pessimistic view. But it is not without hope - although "hope without guarantees" (to use Tolkien's expression) - and the hope has its foundation in his religion, I guess.

originally posted by Alatar:
If Tolkien were writing a pseudo-history, well, then, he knew where the story had to end, which would be with us and our world as it is in its present state.

I think that that is just what he did! (I could dig out some quotations from the letters to prove it...)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I've never heard of Caligula, Alatar. Sorry.

Hmmm...anyway, he was a Roman emperor known for less than moral living.

We've receeded a long, long ways from real Christianity (and other moral things). The pioneers (I use 'em because someone mentioned them earlier in this thread) didn't go around dressed as we do, they didn't go around talking about the things we do, they didn't go around thinking like we do, they were probably ten times as smart as most of us. We've deteriorted a long way in a matter of two hundred years or so...

I would disagree. I tend to believe that we are not much different than we ever were - there's more of us, and if a subset of the population, say 5%, is loco, then you will find more examples of them today (that and the whole media thing). And then there's California...

Not sure how you conclude that people were smarter 200+ years ago. I might cite the giants that wrote the U.S. Constitution, as they were a pretty smart bunch and make many of today's pols look like dolts. However, these were not average people, and what they created was not your average document.

Today you can read what greater and lesser people write as it's all on the internet. You're reading what I've written, and I'm no Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, Tolkien, etc. I'm not even in the same zip code as these greats (well, not all of the time - see repdrunk).

In regards to morality and Christianity, one might think that, though we may have fallen somewhat when compared to our recent past (the pendulum always swings one way then back), but if you consider Cain (kills brother), the reason for the Flood (humanity minus eight beyond redemption), Babel (another intervention), Gemorrah and Sodom (these cities aren't on Google maps), the Roman gladiators (man vs man or animal for entertainment), the Dark Ages, witchcraft trials (more about torturing people than redemption or evil), WWI, WWII, ad nauseum, then you might see that it's the same tired old story with new names and toys.

That was a pretty long sentence - phew! Sorry.

But then you might argue that we've also become a lot more efficient and smarter in the fact that we have tons of machines that do every little thing for us (even eat, in some cases) and our technology that we have now wasn't even dreamed of a hundred years ago...I think, though, that even these great accomplishments have helped to corrupt us.

Tools and trinkets are just extensions of our souls. If there's evil within you, a knife might be for more than cutting bread. And I consider us two-legged apes with shiny toys that most of us use yet don't understand.

Have considered what would happen if the world fell apart and we started to live in post-apocalyptic movie worlds. You would see just how human we are on that day as sometimes you can catch a glimpse when the weather channel predicts a more than light snow fall ("I need to get milk and bread - out of my way!").

We are yearning for immortality. That's what these life supporting machines in hospitals, all the drugs that are out, and just about everything else are made for. Of course, people don't use the term 'immortality', but all in all, that's what we're searching for. And wasn't that what caused the destruction of Numenor? Wasn't that what ended up ruining everyone?

Dunno. I try to keep in mind that the Numenorians were looking to add years to their allotment yet did not enjoy those that they had. We have today, and I've learned that a good day is one where I spend time playing with the kids not worrying about what's not getting done.

And, like Tolkien, I get tired of hearing the same old story and want to go somewhere where litter, TV, cell phones and headaches haven't found and dragons, elves, magic rings and kindly old wizards haven't left.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lots of good points and ideas on this thread! Given Tolkien's evident personal faith, no one could deny that much of the bittersweet flavor of the book stems from the author's Christian view that we live in a world where our occasional victories--even something as profound as the destruction of the Ring--can only be seen in the context of the ongoing 'long defeat', an historical process that will continue until the world meets its end and Arda or Earth is finally remade.

But I think we can view all this in an even wider context. There seems to be something in the nature of Man that yearns for the lost Golden Age. As Eomer alluded in his first post, we sense this in the Creation story of Genesis. The desire to escape the thorny cursed ground and return to the lost Eden haunts every human heart. But there is no return. The angel with a flaming sword is placed at the east of Eden to prevent us from going back. From this point on, there is an inevitable diminishing.

Nor is the Judeo-Christian tradition (or LotR) the only place where we find this sentiment. It seems to be rooted not in one particular set of religious beliefs but inside the very core of our being. So many of the world's myths seem to be saying the same thing: that we have fallen away from a golden time of goodness and continue to diminish.

Ancient Greek myth delineates a creation story that traces the lineage of mankind through five successive "ages" or "races" from the "Golden Age" to the present, which is described as "Iron". In the beginning everything was happy and easy, and mortals lived like gods. No one worked or grew unhappy. Spring never ended. According to Greek myth, this Golden Age only ceased when Zeus overcame the Titans. From there, we've been on a downward path.

Other traditions tell similar stories. Those who follow the "Mother Goddess" claim there was an ancient age of Matriarchy when women were revered but that we have since fallen away from this. The aboriginal tradition in Australia speaks of Dreaming and the Dreamtime, a way to connect with a wonderful Golden Age in the remote past when Gods were real Gods and anything was possible.

I think it could be argued then that the belief in an ancient golden time and the subsequent diminishing of Mankind is an attitude that is hardwired into our very souls, whatever religious traditions we follow. Tolkien is one voice among many that have articulated this universal yearning for what we have lost.

At the same time, I think it's possible to look at JRRT's life and see personal reasons why he placed such emphasis on loss. He had a tough childhood, losing both his parents, and he continued to struggle with feelings of depression through most of his life. This personal struggle surely helped shape the way that he looked at the world and this, in turn, was reflected in the tales he told.

There seem to be two kinds of people in the world: those who feel that the golden age or utopia lies somewhere in the future (followers of the enlightenment), and those who feel that our true utopia lies behind us, at least while this world continues (perhaps, they are the romantics at heart). Of course, the two ideas are not wholly mutually exclusive. It may be possible to have some days when we personally feel one way, and others when we feel the opposite. Yet all in all, I think we lean towards one viewpoint or the other. My gut feeling is that most admirerers of Middle-earth share the author's view that something lies behind us that we have lost and, despite a noble struggle (an effort that certainly must be made) we will never quite retrieve it through our own efforts. I would say that is closest to my personal view.

Just curious if others feel the same way, or am I off base?

[littlemanpoet]

I'm a romantic.

I think Child and alatar have expressed my view.

I do think there is an aspect of this that is tied to the nature of language and thought, which I have expressed at length on other threads and will not bore you with here. PM me if you're interested.

It is a strange world we go to, in which Eru has created something wondrous, knowing that it would become less and less with each age. Why would he do that? Because of a hope that lies beyond the walls of the world? Most Men cannot see that far.

In this, my latest rereading of LotR, I am struck by how the entire story is an elegy. Over and over again the reader is reminded of endings. We are told that Aragorn, who loves Lorien, will never see it again. The Ents will lessen in numbers and probably die out. Even so, there are the Glittering Caves of Aglarond, the Sea, and places the touch of the Elves has changed forever. Elegy.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

There seem to be two kinds of people in the world: those who feel that the golden age or utopia lies somewhere in the future (followers of the enlightenment), and those who feel that our true utopia lies behind us, at least while this world continues (perhaps, they are the romantics at heart). Of course, the two ideas are not wholly mutually exclusive. It may be possible to have some days when we personally feel one way, and others when we feel the opposite. Yet all in all, I think we lean towards one viewpoint or the other. My gut feeling is that most admirerers of Middle-earth share the author's view that something lies behind us that we have lost and, despite a noble struggle (an effort that certainly must be made) we will never quite retrieve it through our own efforts. I would say that is closest to my personal view.

Just curious if others feel the same way, or am I off base?

I'm going to have to be the odd one here, I'm afraid. While I share the view that we have lost something in the past, I also believe that our true utopia lies in the future. I wouldn't want to have lived 100 years ago because I feel that in many respects we have grown as a species. For example, the institutionalized discrimination against racial, ethnic and religious groups that was commonplace not too long ago is no longer tolerated. It's still around, but diminshed and (I hope) decreasing all the time as humans progress. And let's not forget women's rights.

I'm in the midst of packing for a trip right now and have to head out the door pretty soon. I'll try to come back later (probably not until tomorrow)...