And it slips through our fingers

[Folwren]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

I don't see it as so much aligned with religion as just the way things are. All things come to an end..places, kingdoms, races and so forth. I suppose that's part of some scientific theory I couldn't name.

Good point. Extremely good. I have heard, though I have not seen a direct quote from Tolkien, so don't take it for granted, that he didn't want it to be allegorical.

I've never heard of Caligula, Alatar. Sorry.

The media do go around broadcasting things, but that's also what makes it so bad. Without the media, TV, horrible movies, perverse commercials, and whatever else you wish to add, everyday life and everyday people would be a lot better. We've receeded a long, long ways from real Christianity (and other moral things). The pioneers (I use 'em because someone mentioned them earlier in this thread) didn't go around dressed as we do, they didn't go around talking about the things we do, they didn't go around thinking like we do, they were probably ten times as smart as most of us. We've deteriorted a long way in a matter of two hundred years or so...

But then you might argue that we've also become a lot more efficient and smarter in the fact that we have tons of machines that do every little thing for us (even eat, in some cases) and our technology that we have now wasn't even dreamed of a hundred years ago...I think, though, that even these great accomplishments have helped to corrupt us.

We are yearning for immortality. That's what these life supporting machines in hospitals, all the drugs that are out, and just about everything else are made for. Of course, people don't use the term 'immortality', but all in all, that's what we're searching for. And wasn't that what caused the destruction of Numenor? Wasn't that what ended up ruining everyone?

Okay, I think this has actually strayed from the point of the thread. *sigh* I could start up my own thread, but I don't know if we want discussions like that here.

Did I answer anything you said, Alatar? Reading over the last few posts, and yours, I don't know that I did. But I've spent too much time typing here as it is. I'll come back later and say more if you think it necessary.

[Formendacil]

As far as "decline" goes, I have to agree with Alatar that as a technologically-skilled race, we are rising not declining. We've almost reached the levels of Valinor, perhaps.

I would, however, disagree with his statement that we are biologically "simply changing, as stated here:

Originally Posted by alatar

The historical view would be that the world is winding up, in regards to technology and knowledge, and a biological viewpoint would be that the world is simply changing. We might think that we're all that, but we haven't been here even a tenth of the time that the dinosaurs 'ruled the earth,' and just when was the last time you saw one of them boarding a tram?

Biologically, one could make the case (and I don't necessarily agree with it, I'm just playing devil's advocate...) that we are actually setting ourselves back biologically.

If you think about it, the abilities of our science to preserve our lives and make things liveable has made our biological bodies weaker. It has removed the pressures which kept our population down and weeded out the weaker individuals with undesireable (in a reproductive sense) traits. A few centuries ago, there were no severe asthmatics (they would die), no Type 1 diabetics (they died), no real allegeries, and obesity was a much rarer problem. On whole, the part of the human race that survived to adulthood and marriage was healthier than it is today.

That said, I'm not certain that a greater biological health means a great human health. After all, I'm one of those Type 1 Diabetics who would be dead.

Basically, my point is that one type of growth does not equal growth in all fields, and quite often leads to a decline in those fields. For instance, the growth of friendship between Gondor and Rohan led to the growth and prosperity of both populations, but it also led to the decline of the "high" knowledge of Gondor. And just as the defeat of Sauron lead to the growth of freedom and prosperity in Reunited Kingdom, it led to the decline of the Hobbits as men repopulated Eriador and (eventually) crowded the Halflings out.

Looking at the First Age, I think one can see similar parallels. The building of great, protected cities like Gondolin led to a flowering of art and peace, but it also led to a decline in the unity of the Elven kingdoms. And in another way, the decline in the health and population of the good people in Beleriand led to the rise of their relations with Valinor.

I guess it's a question of balance. As the evil of each Age is defeated and lost, so too must a good portion of the good. The imprisoning of Morgoth- the epitome of all evil, is balanced by the loss of the Elven kingdoms, massive Elven populations, most of Beleriand itself, and a decline in the great Elven art and technology in middle-earth. The destruction of the evil Numenoreans was balanced by the loss of Numenor itself. The defeat of Sauron and his separation from the One Ring was matched with a great decline in the power and influence of the Elven realms. His final defeat was met with an end of "Numenorean" Gondor and of Lothlorien and a true High Elven presence.

I guess one could say it is similar to the Christian view that it took the death of Jesus to match the sins of mankind.

A rambling Devil's Advocate,

~Michael A. Joosten - Formendacil~

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Biologically, one could make the case (and I don't necessarily agree with it, I'm just playing devil's advocate...) that we are actually setting ourselves back biologically.

I understand what you're trying to say, yet my point was that we are neither advancing nor retreating. I don't think that biologically our bodies are far from the caves, yet we live in really shiny cities and have been to the Moon. We are adapting slowly to our environment, or more likely adapting our environment to our liking.

After all, I'm one of those Type 1 Diabetics who would be dead.

Glad to have you around.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by alatar
I understand what you're trying to say, yet my point was that we are neither advancing nor retreating. I don't think that biologically our bodies are far from the caves, yet we live in really shiny cities and have been to the Moon. We are adapting slowly to our environment, or more likely adapting our environment to our liking.

Ah, is that your point? I can't really argue much with that, seeing as we aren't changed dramatically, but I would say that we have changed...for the worse.

Everything changes, except for the one who makes it so.

[Guinevere]

Very good points, Formendacil , Alatar and Elianna!

I would particularly like to know if this theme is ultimately religious

Here is what Tolkien wrote in letter #195

Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect "history" to be anything but a "long defeat" - though it contains (and in legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.

I rather share his pessimistic view. But it is not without hope - although "hope without guarantees" (to use Tolkien's expression) - and the hope has its foundation in his religion, I guess.

originally posted by Alatar:
If Tolkien were writing a pseudo-history, well, then, he knew where the story had to end, which would be with us and our world as it is in its present state.

I think that that is just what he did! (I could dig out some quotations from the letters to prove it...)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I've never heard of Caligula, Alatar. Sorry.

Hmmm...anyway, he was a Roman emperor known for less than moral living.

We've receeded a long, long ways from real Christianity (and other moral things). The pioneers (I use 'em because someone mentioned them earlier in this thread) didn't go around dressed as we do, they didn't go around talking about the things we do, they didn't go around thinking like we do, they were probably ten times as smart as most of us. We've deteriorted a long way in a matter of two hundred years or so...

I would disagree. I tend to believe that we are not much different than we ever were - there's more of us, and if a subset of the population, say 5%, is loco, then you will find more examples of them today (that and the whole media thing). And then there's California...

Not sure how you conclude that people were smarter 200+ years ago. I might cite the giants that wrote the U.S. Constitution, as they were a pretty smart bunch and make many of today's pols look like dolts. However, these were not average people, and what they created was not your average document.

Today you can read what greater and lesser people write as it's all on the internet. You're reading what I've written, and I'm no Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, Tolkien, etc. I'm not even in the same zip code as these greats (well, not all of the time - see repdrunk).

In regards to morality and Christianity, one might think that, though we may have fallen somewhat when compared to our recent past (the pendulum always swings one way then back), but if you consider Cain (kills brother), the reason for the Flood (humanity minus eight beyond redemption), Babel (another intervention), Gemorrah and Sodom (these cities aren't on Google maps), the Roman gladiators (man vs man or animal for entertainment), the Dark Ages, witchcraft trials (more about torturing people than redemption or evil), WWI, WWII, ad nauseum, then you might see that it's the same tired old story with new names and toys.

That was a pretty long sentence - phew! Sorry.

But then you might argue that we've also become a lot more efficient and smarter in the fact that we have tons of machines that do every little thing for us (even eat, in some cases) and our technology that we have now wasn't even dreamed of a hundred years ago...I think, though, that even these great accomplishments have helped to corrupt us.

Tools and trinkets are just extensions of our souls. If there's evil within you, a knife might be for more than cutting bread. And I consider us two-legged apes with shiny toys that most of us use yet don't understand.

Have considered what would happen if the world fell apart and we started to live in post-apocalyptic movie worlds. You would see just how human we are on that day as sometimes you can catch a glimpse when the weather channel predicts a more than light snow fall ("I need to get milk and bread - out of my way!").

We are yearning for immortality. That's what these life supporting machines in hospitals, all the drugs that are out, and just about everything else are made for. Of course, people don't use the term 'immortality', but all in all, that's what we're searching for. And wasn't that what caused the destruction of Numenor? Wasn't that what ended up ruining everyone?

Dunno. I try to keep in mind that the Numenorians were looking to add years to their allotment yet did not enjoy those that they had. We have today, and I've learned that a good day is one where I spend time playing with the kids not worrying about what's not getting done.

And, like Tolkien, I get tired of hearing the same old story and want to go somewhere where litter, TV, cell phones and headaches haven't found and dragons, elves, magic rings and kindly old wizards haven't left.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lots of good points and ideas on this thread! Given Tolkien's evident personal faith, no one could deny that much of the bittersweet flavor of the book stems from the author's Christian view that we live in a world where our occasional victories--even something as profound as the destruction of the Ring--can only be seen in the context of the ongoing 'long defeat', an historical process that will continue until the world meets its end and Arda or Earth is finally remade.

But I think we can view all this in an even wider context. There seems to be something in the nature of Man that yearns for the lost Golden Age. As Eomer alluded in his first post, we sense this in the Creation story of Genesis. The desire to escape the thorny cursed ground and return to the lost Eden haunts every human heart. But there is no return. The angel with a flaming sword is placed at the east of Eden to prevent us from going back. From this point on, there is an inevitable diminishing.

Nor is the Judeo-Christian tradition (or LotR) the only place where we find this sentiment. It seems to be rooted not in one particular set of religious beliefs but inside the very core of our being. So many of the world's myths seem to be saying the same thing: that we have fallen away from a golden time of goodness and continue to diminish.

Ancient Greek myth delineates a creation story that traces the lineage of mankind through five successive "ages" or "races" from the "Golden Age" to the present, which is described as "Iron". In the beginning everything was happy and easy, and mortals lived like gods. No one worked or grew unhappy. Spring never ended. According to Greek myth, this Golden Age only ceased when Zeus overcame the Titans. From there, we've been on a downward path.

Other traditions tell similar stories. Those who follow the "Mother Goddess" claim there was an ancient age of Matriarchy when women were revered but that we have since fallen away from this. The aboriginal tradition in Australia speaks of Dreaming and the Dreamtime, a way to connect with a wonderful Golden Age in the remote past when Gods were real Gods and anything was possible.

I think it could be argued then that the belief in an ancient golden time and the subsequent diminishing of Mankind is an attitude that is hardwired into our very souls, whatever religious traditions we follow. Tolkien is one voice among many that have articulated this universal yearning for what we have lost.

At the same time, I think it's possible to look at JRRT's life and see personal reasons why he placed such emphasis on loss. He had a tough childhood, losing both his parents, and he continued to struggle with feelings of depression through most of his life. This personal struggle surely helped shape the way that he looked at the world and this, in turn, was reflected in the tales he told.

There seem to be two kinds of people in the world: those who feel that the golden age or utopia lies somewhere in the future (followers of the enlightenment), and those who feel that our true utopia lies behind us, at least while this world continues (perhaps, they are the romantics at heart). Of course, the two ideas are not wholly mutually exclusive. It may be possible to have some days when we personally feel one way, and others when we feel the opposite. Yet all in all, I think we lean towards one viewpoint or the other. My gut feeling is that most admirerers of Middle-earth share the author's view that something lies behind us that we have lost and, despite a noble struggle (an effort that certainly must be made) we will never quite retrieve it through our own efforts. I would say that is closest to my personal view.

Just curious if others feel the same way, or am I off base?

[littlemanpoet]

I'm a romantic.

I think Child and alatar have expressed my view.

I do think there is an aspect of this that is tied to the nature of language and thought, which I have expressed at length on other threads and will not bore you with here. PM me if you're interested.

It is a strange world we go to, in which Eru has created something wondrous, knowing that it would become less and less with each age. Why would he do that? Because of a hope that lies beyond the walls of the world? Most Men cannot see that far.

In this, my latest rereading of LotR, I am struck by how the entire story is an elegy. Over and over again the reader is reminded of endings. We are told that Aragorn, who loves Lorien, will never see it again. The Ents will lessen in numbers and probably die out. Even so, there are the Glittering Caves of Aglarond, the Sea, and places the touch of the Elves has changed forever. Elegy.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

There seem to be two kinds of people in the world: those who feel that the golden age or utopia lies somewhere in the future (followers of the enlightenment), and those who feel that our true utopia lies behind us, at least while this world continues (perhaps, they are the romantics at heart). Of course, the two ideas are not wholly mutually exclusive. It may be possible to have some days when we personally feel one way, and others when we feel the opposite. Yet all in all, I think we lean towards one viewpoint or the other. My gut feeling is that most admirerers of Middle-earth share the author's view that something lies behind us that we have lost and, despite a noble struggle (an effort that certainly must be made) we will never quite retrieve it through our own efforts. I would say that is closest to my personal view.

Just curious if others feel the same way, or am I off base?

I'm going to have to be the odd one here, I'm afraid. While I share the view that we have lost something in the past, I also believe that our true utopia lies in the future. I wouldn't want to have lived 100 years ago because I feel that in many respects we have grown as a species. For example, the institutionalized discrimination against racial, ethnic and religious groups that was commonplace not too long ago is no longer tolerated. It's still around, but diminshed and (I hope) decreasing all the time as humans progress. And let's not forget women's rights.

I'm in the midst of packing for a trip right now and have to head out the door pretty soon. I'll try to come back later (probably not until tomorrow)...

[the guy who be short]

Am I the only one to feel we are both diminishing and growing equally?

I don't believe in a Utopia, past or future, but looking at the state of mankind I feel we are managing to do both. As Celuien said, look at the decline in prejudices. We don't all understand the technologies around us, but when Archimedes came up with the idea of reflecting and focusing light onto enemy ships, I suppose the average Greek didn't know how that worked. Even if they did, our technologies have got so much more complex that it would be ridiculous to understand them all.

So how have we diminished, if I do not believe in a Utopia? We have diminished, if not in happiness, in ease of life and in peace. The world was a simpler place in the past, and the rise of complexities cause stress in our lives.

I think one of the main points Tolkien was picking up on was the diminishing of respect for Nature. Industrialisation caused the mass slaughter, as I'm sure Tolkien would have called it, of ridiculous amounts of vegetation. We diminish as we no longer fit into the environment; instead, we are its masters. Another Fall of man Tolkien was passionate about.

Similarly passionate about faith, Tolkien lived in a time when religion in Britain was beginning to fade. I'm not sure how noticable this would have been during the years in which he wrote LotR (I'm sure the decline in faith occurred after the writing of the novel), but perhaps he picked up on it.

We're fading in many ways as we are growing in others, and I think Tolkien too accepted and incorporated this into his work. The Fall was rivalled by The Rise. As the Elves and the Ents and the Hobbits faded from the world, Men Rose to take their place and to grow as a race. If Tolkien lamented the decline of Good in the form of Elves etc, surely he celebrated the Rise of Good in the growth of Man.

[Boromir88]

I'm gonna bring in another aspect of this growth/decline that could be a possibility as well...economics. The Economic struggles is something that Tolkien had to live through, so I wonder if there's any effect we get in LOTR?

It's the basic concept of the Business Cycle. It's always going to happen, there's no stopping it. There's going to be a rise, then when you reach the top, it's kind of bad, because that's the pinnacle, you can't get any higher, so you slip back down. There's no stopping the downfall either. There's ways to sort of stabilize how bad it gets, or how long we will be "in the hole," but you can't stop from that fall, because you can't stay on top forever. With the World Wide depressions early in the 1900's most countries had hit rock bottom, and the good news about being at rock bottom is, you can only go up. So, it sort of works both ways.

That sort of seems as what you are trying to say Eomer, if I missed the point, then my mistake. The fact that all these people weill have a rise, and reach this pinnacle, then they go into decline.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I feel that in many respects we have grown as a species. For example, the institutionalized discrimination against racial, ethnic and religious groups that was commonplace not too long ago is no longer tolerated. It's still around, but diminshed and (I hope) decreasing all the time as humans progress. And let's not forget women's rights.

Institutionalized racism is apparently a rather recent development in the history of the human race. It was unknown during the Roman Empire (as far as we know), which was an empire of mixed ethnic background. Religious Fundamentalism is on the increase. Not tolerated? By whom?

One of the things Tolkien (and Lewis) was reacting to was the myth of progress. He was born in an era that believed in the "romantic fallacy" that all humans are basically good. He lived and wrote in an era when most people believed that scientific progress was seen as virtually the new savior of humanity. Tolkien deplored the "splintered" human life that makes such moral choices as abortion, mercy killing, and so forth, necessary.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I think one of the main points Tolkien was picking up on was the diminishing of respect for Nature. Industrialisation caused the mass slaughter, as I'm sure Tolkien would have called it, of ridiculous amounts of vegetation. We diminish as we no longer fit into the environment; instead, we are its masters. Another Fall of man Tolkien was passionate about.

Not only for nature, but for humanity. Tolkien would have said that not industrialization (sorry for my non-Brit spelling ), but the Sarumanic mind behind it, caused the dehumanization of the workplace and daily life, that led to the kind of mindset that could produce mass slaughter. And Tolkien would have disagreed that we are nature's masters; he would have said that we are fools to think we are, and to think that we have somehow insulated ourselves from catastrophe with all our technology.

Originally Posted by tgwbs

Similarly passionate about faith, Tolkien lived in a time when religion in Britain was beginning to fade. I'm not sure how noticable this would have been during the years in which he wrote LotR (I'm sure the decline in faith occurred after the writing of the novel), but perhaps he picked up on it.

The decline in faith, on a cultural level, had already begun in the 1700s with the Enlightenment, though its seeds can be found in the Renaissance. The growth of "natural science" as a branch of knowledge separated from "philosophy" was part of this. Darwin's theories aided an already burgeoning pull away from faith. The atrocity of World War One sharpened the focus. In fact World War Two, in both England and America, served to slow unbelief (in the cultural faith) for a little while. So Tolkien was quite aware of this, and I would of course be very surprised if it could was not a part of his writing.

As for economics, my sense from his Letters and the Biography is that Tolkien was really quite pragmatic about it, and there is no evidence that he gave much thought to economics as a field of study or of moral consideration.

The Age of Man seemed for Tolkien to mean that good and evil would no longer be so clear-cut. "We have orcs on both sides", he wrote to his son Christopher during WW2.

Lastly, the growth in the sheer number of humans, absent the moral underpinnings that Tolkien believed were being eroded by the rise of the machine,
has resulted in a perceived reduction in the value of individual human lives (not to mention animal and vegetative).