The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books > Chapter-by-Chapter
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-24-2005, 10:43 PM   #1
Lathriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Lathriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
Lathriel has just left Hobbiton.
When I said that Theoden trusted Eowyn I meant that he knew that of all his captains etc.(who were going to war anyway) she would be the most capable of ruling Rohan if a crisis arose.He knew that she was strong enough.
__________________
Back again

Last edited by Lathriel; 06-25-2005 at 12:24 PM.
Lathriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2005, 09:12 AM   #2
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

Quote:
When I said that Theoden trusted Eowyn I meant that he knew that of all his captains etc. she would be the most capable of ruling Rohan if a crisis arose.He knew that she was strong enough.
True. Being of the royal family helped too.

(Actually, being of the royal family was the decisive factor).
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2005, 03:18 PM   #3
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
First of all, apologies for my late arrival! Secondly, further apologies if I repeat what others may have posted to some degree, as I feel a bit rushed. Thirdly, even more apologies for this being a bit long - I’m trying to get a fortnight’s posts into one. If anyone feels daunted, as the poet said, ‘Look, & pass.’

1

The chapter begins with Gandalf & Pippin having just departed - the Fellowship, having in part rejoined, has now broken up again. This fragmentation will continue in this chapter. Only four of the original nine remain. Soon three will depart - Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli - & Merry will be left alone. Its often overlooked that he, of all the Fellowship is left completely alone with ‘strangers’. Its understandable in a way that he feels like a piece of luggage. Merry ends up isolated from kith & kin, having to make his way among a group of men who all know each other, share a history & cullture & with high matters on their minds. He is a Hobbit who set off for an adventure many months back, who in many ways had been the leader of their expedition at the start. Even after their capture at Parth Galen, when it was just him & Pippin, one got the sense that (as far as he was concerned at least) he was the ‘leader’. To go from that to feeling like ‘a piece of baggage’ must have been a shock to the system to say the least. The appearance of the Dunedain can only have added to his feelings of insignificance. Great deeds are afoot - what can one lone(ly) Hobbit do but get in the way?

One can feel his despair:

Quote:
'Don't leave me behind!' said Merry. 'I have not been of much use yet; but I don't want to be laid aside, like baggage to be called for when all is over. I don't think the Riders will want to be bothered with me now. Though, of course, the king did say that I was to sit by him when he came to his house and tell him all about the Shire.'
'Yes,' said Aragorn, 'and your road lies with him, I think, Merry. But do not look for mirth at the ending. It will be long, I fear, ere Theoden sits at ease again in Meduseld. Many hopes will wither in this bitter Spring.'
He has not been much use, he says, no-one could possibly want to be bothered with him. Even though Aragorn tells him that his road lies with Theoden, he offers little hope for that road. Perhaps Aragorn’s own feelings of despair cloud his judgement, but from Merry’s point of view the situation could hardly seem worse. Worse will come, of course, but he will pass through the coming darkness. I can’t help but be reminded of the end of Bilbo’s tale. Both he & Merry find themselves in the midst of a terrible battle where the one they swore to serve is killed & both are made into better people as a result. Through suffering & loss they find maturity. Its also interesting that like Bilbo, Merry goes on to write books. There is a difference though - Bilbo’s books - his ‘Translations from the Elvish’ - deal with high & ancient glories of the lost past, whereas Merry’s are about the simple things of the Shire. As he will tell Pippin later, it is best to love first what you are fitted to love..& the soil of the Shiire is deep.

For now, though, his mind is on the situation at hand. He will die defending the King if needs be - like Fili & Kili long ago.


2

The Dunedain appear - summoned by Aragorn? Well, only in wish. Thirty have come with Halbarad, along with the Sons of Elrond. Thirty? What point is Tolkien making here? That the Dunedain of the north are a fading people - even gathering thirty together was a major achievement. Denethor, it seems, is right - if Aragorn is not exactly the last of a ragged house he is pretty close to being so. But these are Dunedain. Even thirty of them is a force to be reckoned with. They each bear a single star as insignia - as did the seven shipe that survived the downfall of Numenor - Seven Stars & Seven Stones & One White Tree....

It is Elrohir who passes on his father’s word about the Paths of the Dead, & Aragorn rejects it. This is interesting in itself. If he knows the words of the Seer & believes himself to be the Heir of Isildur then it is his destiny to take that road, but he is here seeking to avoid it. Halbarad then shows him the Standard of Arwen. This is the Standard of the King of the Dead - Aragorn himself, not the leader of the dead host. Yet Arwen has made this standard. The one who stands beneath that standard is King of both the Living & the Dead. In this we see Arwen’s foreknowledge & her power manifest. She is a ‘shadowy’ figure, little glimpsed in the story itself, but here she seems to be a ‘power’ - like her foremothers, Galadriel, Luthien & Melian. Whatever device she has woven onto the standard is invisible to mortal eyes - only the dead may read the signs upon it. As has been said before, the High Elves live in both worlds at once. Legolas will later say that he does not fear the dead, & in the folklore Tolkien drew upon the Elves have a close association with the dead - often there is no distinction made between them.

3

Aragorn looks into the Palantir, confronts & challenges Sauron

Quote:
'I have looked in the Stone of Orthanc, my friends.'
'You have looked in that accursed stone of wizardry!' exclaimed Gimli with fear and astonishment in his face. 'Did you say aught to--him? Even Gandalf feared that encounter.'
'You forget to whom you speak,' said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. 'What did you fear that I should say to him? Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? Nay, Gimli,' he said in a softer voice, and the grimness left his face, and he looked like one who has laboured in sleepless pain for many nights. 'Nay, my friends, I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough--barely.'
He drew a deep breath. 'It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not till now. The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Theoden; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur and the sword of Elendil. Now in the very hour of his great designs the heir of Isildur and the Sword are revealed; for I showed the blade re-forged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.
Aragorn states his right to the stone - a right even Sauron himself does not have. In the battle of wills Aragorn came out the victor, wrenching the stone from the control of Sauron himself. Sauron has seen Aragorn - but in ‘other guise’ than Gimli sees him - what ‘other guise’? Legolas has already seen Aragorn with a ‘crown’ of flame flickering on his brow in the earlier confrontation with Eomer. How did Sauron see him? It seems that Aragorn is also a ‘dweller in both worlds’ - he is not what he seems. But with the passage of time that ‘inner’ Aragorn is surfacing, breaking through. This is not so much an evolution as a gradual revelation of his true nature.

Quote:
Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness.
The Tower trembles; to the tombs of kings
doom approaches. The Dead awaken;
for the hour is come for the oathbreakers:
at the Stone of Erech they shall stand again
and hear there a horn in the hills ringing.
Whose shall the horn be? Who shall call them
from the grey twilight, the forgotten people?
The heir of him to whom the oath they swore.
From the North shall he come, need shall drive him:
he shall pass the Door to the Paths of the Dead.
Here we have a glimpse of Aragorn, the King to come, seen by Malbeth centuries previously. Malbeth has seen that Aragorn shall walk the Paths of the Dead. So, what of free will in Middle earth? In a sense Aragorn has already walked the Paths of the Dead, because Malbeth has ‘seen’ him do it. So, where did Malbeth’s vision have its origin? Eru?


4

Aragorn leads the Grey Company into the Underworld, dwelling place of the Dead who have bound themselves to an eternity between the worlds, unable to die unless they are released by the heir of the one to whom the Oath they swore. They cannot release themselves from the oath of service they swore. It is binding on them.

Quote:
The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.
What do they fear? Ghosts? Horror of the fate of the Oathbreakers? What power do the Oathbreakers have? Simple terror. Certainly this is what they use against the enemy when they come face to face with them later. It is the horror of death without release that the Oathbreakers exude, an eternity spent in the dark, not alone, but with others suffering in the same horrific way, horror feeding on horror with no end in sight, in full knowledge that they have brought it on themselves.

Yet Aragorn can release them, & he summons them to follow:

Quote:
'The Dead are following,' said Legolas. 'I see shapes of Men and of horses, and pale banners like shreds of cloud, and spears like winter-thickets on a misty night. The Dead are following.'
'Yes, the Dead ride behind. They have been summoned,' said Elladan.
The Elves can see the Dead following their company. Its interesting the way the Oathbreakers are called the Dead, capitalised. they are truly ‘Dead’ - bound within the Circles of the World by their oath. Mortals die, yes, but this is a release, a moving on to their destined home. The Oathbreakers cannot move on. They are the dead who cannot ever truly die.

Quote:
Long had the terror of the Dead lain upon that hill and upon the empty fields about it. For upon the top stood a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground. Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Numenor and there set by Isildur at his landing. None of the people of the valley dared to approach it, nor would they dwell near; for they said that it was a trysting-place of the Shadow-men, and there they would gather in times of fear, thronging round the Stone and whispering.
The Dead can pass out from their dwelling & gather at the Stone brought by Isildur from Numenor. The stone is (or was) clearly sacred. What kind of ceremony was involved in the Oathtaking is difficult to imagine, but it was obviously not just a ‘gentleman’s agreement’ that the Oathbreakers would ‘help out’ if they weren’t too busy that day. They swore an oath that would bind them, living or dead. Again, we see the power of oaths in Middle earth - once sworn they are inescapable. At this point we may remember that Merry himself has just sworn an oath of service to Theoden. The chapter begins with an oath sworn out of love by a simple Hobbit, which we may find touching. It ends with a display of the consequences of taking such an oath.

Aragorn summons the Dead to serve not him but the oath they swore. He is not binding them to his service but rather offering them a way out of Death. They not only accept but seem driven to do what they must to achieve release:

Quote:
and the Shadow Host pressed behind and fear went on before them, until they came to Calembel upon Ciril, and the sun went down like blood behind Pinnath Gelin away in the West behind them.
This is the chapter in which Aragorn’s true nature is made manifest to all. He has become King in all but title.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2005, 05:37 AM   #4
Lhunardawen
Hauntress of the Havens
 
Lhunardawen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
Lhunardawen has been trapped in the Barrow!
Silmaril

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
Perhaps Eowyn is following her uncle's example: first she does her duty, as does he, then she goes chasing after glory, as does he.
Actually, I was under the impression that she was chasing death at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Encaitare
Also, this was to be a last stand of sorts, and knowing they'd be greatly outnumbered, the Rohirrim would need all the morale they could get. To be fighting alongside the king would probably inspire his men to fight harder. It's more heartening to have the king right there than doing what might be seen as hiding away where it was safe.
It could also have been his way of making things up to the Rohirrim after being such a useless king for so long.

Anyways, davem, what took you so long?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
If he knows the words of the Seer & believes himself to be the Heir of Isildur then it is his destiny to take that road, but he is here seeking to avoid it. Halbarad then shows him the Standard of Arwen.
Perhaps he is still in a bit of denial about his kingship before being shown the standard, or he still desires to ride with the Rohirrim. It is interesting that indirectly, it was Arwen who nudged him into 'accepting his kingship'. (Undoubtedly, she has a lot to benefit from that.) Also, we see that Aragorn looked into the Palantir after being shown the standard. That act was the start of his 'journey' to kingship, as what he saw finally convinced him to take the Paths of the Dead. Not only that, he finally revealed himself to Sauron through the Palantir. All in all, he proved himself to be its rightful owner - to be king.
Lhunardawen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2005, 06:40 AM   #5
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

Quote:
Perhaps he is still in a bit of denial about his kingship before being shown the standard, or he still desires to ride with the Rohirrim.
I don't think he was in denial about his kingship. In the movies he was but I don't get that impression from the book. He may have been in doubt about which was the best way to go though...
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2005, 12:25 PM   #6
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Baldor the Hapless

Quote:
Away to the left something glittered in the gloom as Aragorn's torch drew near. Then Aragorn halted and went to look what it might be.
'Does he feel no fear?' muttered the Dwarf. 'In any other cave Gimli Gloin's son would have been the first to run to the gleam of gold. But not here! Let it lie!'
Nonetheless he drew near, and saw Aragorn kneeling, while Elladan held aloft both torches. Before him were the bones of a mighty man. He had been clad in mail, and still his harness lay there whole; for the cavern's air was as dry as dust, and his hauberk was gilded. His belt was of gold and garnets, and rich with gold was the helm upon his bony head face downward on the floor. He had fallen near the far wall of the cave, as now could be seen, and before him stood a stony door closed fast: his finger-bones were still clawing at the cracks. A notched and broken sword lay by him, as if he had hewn at the rock in his last despair.
Aragorn did not touch him, but after gazing silently for a while he rose and sighed, 'Hither shall the flowers of simbelmyne come never unto world's end,' he murmured. 'Nine mounds and seven there are now green with grass, and through all the long years he has lain at the door that he could not unlock. Whither does it lead? Why would he pass? None shall ever know!
The first time I read this chapter I was struck by the finding of the body at the door. This is an ioncredibly creepy moment. as the Comppany pass through the Paths of the Dead they find a corpse. He is not one of the Dead - he is merely dead. At this point in the narrative we are told nothing about him - although Aragorn seems to know his story he does not ellucidate for the benefit of his companions. In fact, it is not till the next chapter that we start to be given his background:

Quote:
It is said that when the Eorlingas came out of the North and passed at length up the Snowbourn, seeking strong places of refuge in time of need, Brego and his son Baldor climbed the Stair of the Hold and so came before the Door. On the threshold sat an old man, aged beyond guess of years; tall and kingly he had been, but now he was withered as an old stone. Indeed for stone they took him, for he moved not, and he said no word, until they sought to pass him by and enter. And then a voice came out of him, as it were out of the ground, and to their amaze it spoke in the western tongue: The way is shut.
'Then they halted and looked at him and saw that he lived still; but he did not look at them. The way is shut, his voice said again. It was made by those who are Dead, and the Dead keep it, until the time comes. The way is shut.
'And when will that time be?' said Baldor. But no answer did he ever get. For the old man died in that hour and fell upon his face; and no other tidings of the ancient dwellers in the mountains have our folk ever learned. Yet maybe at last the time foretold has come, and Aragorn may pass.
We perhaps learn a little here about the nature of Baldor: he is not afraid to challenge this mysterous figure, the ‘guardian of the Door to the Paths of the Dead. He is also, it seems, an impatient young man. His innate curiosity comes across in the fact that though the man has told him that the way is shut until the time comes Baldor demands to know when that time shall be. This incident clearly plays on his mind - he cannot let it go. It seems to eat away at him, until opportunity arises:

Quote:
'No man knows,' said Theoden: 'yet ancient legend, now seldom spoken, has somewhat to report. If these old tales speak true that have come down from father to son in the House of Eorl, then the Door under Dwimorberg leads to a secret way that goes beneath the mountain to some forgotten end. But none have ever ventured in to search its secrets, since Baldor, son of Brego, passed the Door and was never seen among men again. A rash vow he spoke, as he drained the horn at that feast which Brego made to hallow new-built Meduseld, and he came never to the high seat of which he was the heir

(2512-70: 2. Brego. He drove the enemy out of the Wold, and Rohan was not attacked again for many years. In 2569 he completed the great hall of Meduseld. At the feast his son Baldor vowed that he would tread 'the Paths of the Dead' and did not return.*2 Brego died of grief the next year.)
At Theoden’s funeral we are given Baldor’s ‘nickname’:

Quote:
Then a minstrel and loremaster stood up and named all the names of the Lords of the Mark in their order: Eorl the Young; and Brego builder of the Hall; and Aldor brother of Baldor the hapless.
It’s interesting to look at the varioous meanings of the word ‘Hapless’:http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=hapless. There are various meanings, ranging from unlucky to cursed.

So, Baldor swears his rash vow at the feast, & dies mysteriously on the Paths of the Dead. We don’t know what he sought, but its clear that he didn’t die trying to escape from the Paths, but to get through the door he found in the cave wall:
Quote:
He had fallen near the far wall of the cave, as now could be seen, and before him stood a stony door closed fast: his finger-bones were still clawing at the cracks. A notched and broken sword lay by him, as if he had hewn at the rock in his last despair.
It seems his ‘despair’ was not related to his inability to escape but to his inability to get through the door. What was on the other side - or, more importantly, what did Baldor believe was on the other side of it? Had the dead shown him something, only to take it away? Could he have escaped but chose not to go, preferring to die there? Or was it that he had become trapped by the Dead & saw the door as his only escape from them? We’ll never know, & I think that’s why this episode is at once so mysterious & disturbing. We both want to know what happened and at the same time do [/i]not[/i]!

Something else struck me. Baldor’s place in the royal line is taken by his younger brother, Aldor:

Quote:
2544-2645: 3. Aldor the Old. He was Brego's second son. He became known as the Old, since he lived to a great age, and was king for 75 years. In his time the Rohirrim increased, and drove out or subdued the last of the Dunlendish people that lingered east of Isen. Harrowdale and other mountain-valleys were settled.
Is anyone else struck by the similarity between Baldor/Aldor & Boromir/Faramir? The older brother in each case is reckless, proud & ‘hapless’. Each falls, to be replaced by a wiser younger brother, who is more suited to rule. Maybe it was better in each case that the older brother died. Boromir redeems himself in his fall, Baldor, on the other hand, remains an example of folly. In the end, whatever vow he took in the Hall that night is not recorded - to go & return? To dare the Paths whetever betide? To test the old man’s words? Like the exact reason for his death in the darkness, we’ll never know. Certainly, it seems his fate was sealed by the old man’s words. And given the situation of the old man, one may be forgiven for wondering if, after all Baldor was cursed.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2005, 01:42 PM   #7
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,328
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
To borrow Davem's quote...

Quote:
The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.
I find this an interesting line- almost the illustration of the difference between Elves and Half-Elves. Remember, Elladan and Elrohir are not mentioned here!

Quite often, I feel, people have the tendency to focus on the Elven-half of the Half-Elves. Perhaps that's because the most prominent Half-Elves: Earendil, Elwing, and Elrond chose Elven-kind. And as noted when Elladan and Elrohir arrive at the start of this chapter, the Elvish blood in them differentiates them immediately from their human kindred the first time we speak of them:

Quote:
"But even as Aragorn, they are courteous, if they break their silence," said Legolas. "And have you maked the brethern Elladan and Elrohir? Less sombre is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell."
And Elladan and Elrohir are only approximately one-quarter Elf, as their mother was a full-blooded Elf.

Not a huge point, to be made, but I found it fascinating to see a hint of "Man" in these Half-Elves so often portrayed only according to their Elven "half".
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:34 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.