Luthien & Galadriel

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

I agree that the difference in power between a Maia or even half-Maia and an Elda is probably more significant than most people seem to think. And besides, the Elves of the Third Age needed Rings to reach that kind of power whereas the Maiar.. well.. ended up with Rings also. A few of them. But I think my point still stands.

And anyway, Lúthien's already beaten Galadriel to the Most-Joy-and-Most-Sorrow thing, and the Only-One-to-Ever-Move-Mandos thing...

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Luthien_ Tinuviel

I agree that the difference in power between a Maia or even half-Maia and an Elda is probably more significant than most people seem to think. And besides, the Elves of the Third Age needed Rings to reach that kind of power whereas the Maiar.. well.. ended up with Rings also. A few of them. But I think my point still stands.

And anyway, Lúthien's already beaten Galadriel to the Most-Joy-and-Most-Sorrow thing, and the Only-One-to-Ever-Move-Mandos thing...

Well I'm not talking about that. Remember that even the Elda can surpass the maiars (i.e. Feanor, Fingolfin). And Galadriel was melian's pupil & even before she came to ME, she was already accounted among the greatest in Valinor, even coming close to Feanor's stature.

[Mithalwen]

I really don't think it is a fair comparison. But I may be prejudiced because I have never found Luthien anything like as interesting as Galadriel. And Beren never really appealed - especially as I blame him for FInrod the beloved's death ...

We don't really see Galadriel try her power when the Eldar were at their peak in the elder days and by the time of LOTR, Galadriel had borne a child which depleted the strength of Elf women. Nevertheless she is undoubtedly the most inherently powerful of the ELdar remaining with or without the ring and I would say at least's Gandalf's equal before his encounter with the Balrog. With the ring she has the strength to repel all but Sauron himself and she is able to cast down Dol Guldur even after the RIng is destroyed.

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I really don't think it is a fair comparison. But I may be prejudiced because I have never found Luthien anything like as interesting as Galadriel. And Beren never really appealed - especially as I blame him for FInrod the beloved's death ...

We don't really see Galadriel try her power when the Eldar were at their peak in the elder days and by the time of LOTR, Galadriel had borne a child which depleted the strength of Elf women. Nevertheless she is undoubtedly the most inherently powerful of the ELdar remaining with or without the ring and I would say at least's Gandalf's equal before his encounter with the Balrog. With the ring she has the strength to repel all but Sauron himself and she is able to cast down Dol Guldur even after the RIng is destroyed.

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

Yes... I seem to think so because she was quoted to be the greatest of Elven women, that would mean Luthien was removed from the picture because she became a mortal. But you see, before Luthien surrendered her immortality, she was on par (or almost) with Sauron during their confrontation at Tol Sirion & she also tore down it's walla & laid bare its pits. Same thing with Galadriel. I don't believe Sauron could've taken over Lothlorien or Galadriel so long as she had Nenya without Sauron's One Ring.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

IWe don't really see Galadriel try her power when the Eldar were at their peak in the elder days and by the time of LOTR, Galadriel had borne a child which depleted the strength of Elf women. Nevertheless she is undoubtedly the most inherently powerful of the ELdar remaining with or without the ring and I would say at least's Gandalf's equal before his encounter with the Balrog. With the ring she has the strength to repel all but Sauron himself and she is able to cast down Dol Guldur even after the RIng is destroyed.

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

Just a quick question, Mithalwen, as I must be on 'thick' today, but are you suggesting that childbirth diminished the strength of elven women? Is this stated somewhere in one of Tolkien's more recondite revisionary texts or are you making this deduction from what you have read?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Just a quick question, Mithalwen, as I must be on 'thick' today, but are you suggesting that childbirth diminished the strength of elven women? Is this stated somewhere in one of Tolkien's more recondite revisionary texts or are you making this deduction from what you have read?

Found this in 'Laws & Customs among the Eldar' (Morgoth's Ring)

Also the Eldar say that in the begetting, & still more in the bearing of children, greater share & strength of their being, in mind & body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the eldar brought forth fewer children;....

&

Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi (Elven women) fought valiantly, & there was less difference in strength & speed between elven-men & elven-women that had not borne child than is seen amongst mortals.

There may be other references to the way childbearing dimishes the strength of elven-women but that's all a quick search has turned up.

[Nimrodel_9]

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

I never thought of that before. So if Galadriel was so powerful I wonder why she didn't do more?

[Formendacil]

I believe that it is impossible for Galadriel to have equalled Luthien, even if she had "Feanorian" powers and Nenya. My reason?

Elrond.

Elrond is clearly shown in the Lord of the Rings to be Galadriel's peer. They have their "specialties", sure enough, but overall they are comparable. In some ways, Elrond is clearly the superior.

While it is true that Elrond bears Vilya, said to be the greatest of the Three Rings, I highly doubt that the difference in Ring-Power would make him Galadriel's equal, if she is of "Feanorian" power.

The reason lies in his descent from Luthien. Tolkien refers to the lineage of Luthien in Elros' descendents as being the key to their "divine"-like status- not their royalty or Elven blood. In addition, note this quote from "The Houses of Healing":

Aragorn went first to Faramir, and then to the Lady Eowyn, and last to Merry. When he had looked on the faces of the sick, and seen their hurts he sighed. 'Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me,' he said. 'Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greatest power.'

Elrond's power is clearly tied to being much older than Aragorn, and the power is obviously from their joint lineage, a lineage in which Luthien figures most prominently, and to which Tolkien refers most often. Tolkien refers to Luthien more than any other First Age ancestor in connection to Aragorn than any other in his Letters- including Earendil.

Now, if Luthien's great-grandson is such a powerful figure based on her blood, and if her blood is still shaping the lives of her descendents as far down as Aragorn, then I would say that it's quite unlikely Galadriel was her equal, Nenya or no Nenya.

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Well I'm not talking about that. Remember that even the Elda can surpass the maiars (i.e. Feanor, Fingolfin). And Galadriel was melian's pupil & even before she came to ME, she was already accounted among the greatest in Valinor, even coming close to Feanor's stature.

Yeah.
I think that Galadriel didn't really possess the kind of power Luthien had--although I'm pretty sure a few very gifted Elves could surpass the Maiar... look at Feanor... he made the Silmarilli... did the Maiar make their own light gems and stuff? Anyway, if Curufinwe/Feanaro was able to surpass the Maiar in those things, I'm pretty sure Galadriel has surpassed Luthien in that...