Luthien & Galadriel

[Anguirel]

Well...like many others, I like Galadriel more as a character. And in a way, I think that power is, ultimately, what is of importance, or what should be. The Vala (or whatever the feminisation is) Nessa is far more powerful than Galadriel or Luthien, for instance, but because she does nothing other than dance through some stars, and, more importantly, does not reveal to us any sort of character, we cannot regard her as much.

Luthien surpasses Galadriel in terms of deeds by some distance; but Galadriel's character is arguably Tolkien's most fascinating and complex, which Luthien's is not, apparently, as compelling. It has potential, vast potential to be framed on her deeds, but it is not fully formed.

And, as a sideline, I must defend Beren from Mith's strident charge of wetness. He seems a bit drippy because his girlfriend is far more "powerful" in terms of puissance than he is. But on his own level, his deeds are unparallelled-in the attempt far more than in the accomplishment, but that should be the nature of true heroism. I admire Beren's hopeless stand in Dorthonion, for instance, far more than the return voyage of Earendil. He shows tremendous resolve, courage, and sheer stubbornness. He is not my sort of hero at all, but I am forced to admit his greatness in moments like his defiance of Thingol.

"I have earned such names from no elf, be he King or no."

In all, I would say Beren is more powerful than Luthien in the same way that Galadriel is-the way we, the readers, accept them. This seems to me far more important than weighing quarts of Maia blood against inches of pretty hair, or some other such nonsense.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm sorry but I feel I must spoil Galadriel-fest here.

Galadriel was 'doing stuff' with Nenya. She was using it to preserve Lothlorien and doing a fair job in keeping Sauron's servants out. But that's pretty much all. She couldn't stop the Orcs from entering her land, could she? She wasn't that powerful with Nenya.

As for Glorfindel (and Aragorn) with the Nazgul, the Nazgul are only ghosts anyway. Why should a mighty Elf-lord be afraid of them? Aragorn himself was doing a pretty good job of fighting off those undead rogues! To compare the Nazgul with the Maiar (which was suggested if not explicitly set out) is laughable.

So Galadriel might well be more powerful than the Glorfindel who chased away the Nazgul, but she's still nowhere near what Luthien was, even with an Elven Ring of Power. Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar (undoubtedly the greatest Elf) and is by far greater than Galadriel ever could have been.

Mith, doesn't Tolkien say somewhere that Elrond's mixed ancestry (Elves and Men) makes him greater than other Elves and Men?

[daeron]

Luthien's power came from a far greater source, love. Not that I am a romance novelist or something, but I believe love gives a reason to focus the inherent power more than anything else.

But that aside, I think there should be no comparison, Luthien was half Maia. But to put the great Morgoth to sleep says something. One must remember that though Sauron was mighty in the first age, he was far greater at the end of the second age, having mastered the lores of Aule in his exile , having learnt a lot from the elves and the forging of the rings of power. Denying death to man as he did for the Nazgul, proves the point.


Also, I think the ability of elves of Middle Earth declined as the ages passed. Those of the third age were considerably weakend in mind and body, especially those who wielded the rings of power. They longed more to return to Valinor, and I believe began to consider Middle Earth as only a temporary residence. So we cannot exactly blame Galadriel for not waging a one on one combat with sauron as Luthien did.


There was also the fact that Nenya guarded lorien and her presence was required just as Melian's was to keep the girdle intact. Considering Luthien's accomplishments one does wonder whether Melian herself could not have achieved more, probably Morgoth's overthrow itself.

Galadriel could not risk exposing Lorien which was dearer to her than probably Valinor itself. She was proud and considered herself a ruler here which she would not have been in Valinor.


Melian did not overthrow Morgoth, nay not even Sauron. Fate had not decreed a combat between them. As it did not between Galadriel and Sauron. Luthien's confrontation was but a 'chance meeting as we say in Middle Earth.' Had not luthien let Sauron go, there would not have been losses of hundreds of thousands of lives in later ages. So is greater kindness an evil, one can only hope not.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by daeron

But that aside, I think there should be no comparison, Luthien was half Maia. But to put the great Morgoth to sleep says something. One must remember that though Sauron was mighty in the first age, he was far greater at the end of the second age, having mastered the lores of Aule in his exile , having learnt a lot from the elves and the forging of the rings of power. Denying death to man as he did for the Nazgul, proves the point.

Sauron was of Aule's kin BEFORE he worked with Morgoth, not after, just for the record. Although I would agree that Sauron appears to have worked on his abilities somewhat between his defeat at Luthien's hands and his re-emergence as Dark Lord II.

Originally Posted by daeron

Also, I think the ability of elves of Middle Earth declined as the ages passed. Those of the third age were considerably weakend in mind and body, especially those who wielded the rings of power. They longed more to return to Valinor, and I believe began to consider Middle Earth as only a temporary residence. So we cannot exactly blame Galadriel for not waging a one on one combat with sauron as Luthien did.

Ah... But what about in the Second Age, when the Rings were new, and Galadriel dared not use hers out of fear, and Elves were still a force to be reckoned with? Elrond and Celeborn were fighting on the forefront of battle, but Galadriel... She was in Lindon, doing very little.

Or during the Last Alliance, when the Ring-situation was similar, but Sauron was weaker? Still no Galadriel... Just Gil-galad and Elrond and Cirdan... And if Gil-galad managed to chop Sauron into itty-bitty pieces with the help of a 'mere' man, then surely the 'great' Galadriel could have done more.

I say we can blame her!

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

While Elrond is descended from Luthien, (and I am not sure that the Maia thing is so significant because Melian had to "become" an elf ot bear a child..but this has been argued elsewhere...) he is also descended from men.

And Men are less than Elves?

As a general race, I would agree that the average Man would seem to have less power than the average Elf, but there are many exceptions to the rule.

Indeed, as Beren, Hurin, Turin, and Tuor (and pretty much all the Numenoreans) will show, all that Men need to match or beat their Elven kin is the training. And even then, for all that they are short-lived, they can still absorb so much as to make a permanent mark.

If it wasn't for mortality, the Elves' days would have been numbered MUCH sooner...

PS: Glad to hear you're an Elrond fan, Mith. I'm a big Elrond-fan (books that is), and much prefer him over Galadriel- for many of the reasons you mentioned.

[daeron]

I also wonder what power Arwen would wield being both a descendent of Luthien and the grand daughter of Galadriel. She didn't take part in the War of the Ring.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I'm sorry but I feel I must spoil Galadriel-fest here.

Galadriel was 'doing stuff' with Nenya. She was using it to preserve Lothlorien and doing a fair job in keeping Sauron's servants out. But that's pretty much all. She couldn't stop the Orcs from entering her land, could she? She wasn't that powerful with Nenya.

As for Glorfindel (and Aragorn) with the Nazgul, the Nazgul are only ghosts anyway. Why should a mighty Elf-lord be afraid of them? Aragorn himself was doing a pretty good job of fighting off those undead rogues! To compare the Nazgul with the Maiar (which was suggested if not explicitly set out) is laughable.


Mith, doesn't Tolkien say somewhere that Elrond's mixed ancestry (Elves and Men) makes him greater than other Elves and Men?

#
Well I think you are wrong so laugh away.....
The orcs only penetrated the edges of lorien - they would not have been able to enter it's heart.

Nazgul "are only ghosts " yeah right.. the witch king just says "boo"....

And I would say that becasue Galadriel had more inherent power it was more dangerous for her to use the ring...

As for Luthien ... well say what you like, Gally is just more interesting... blondes have more fun...........

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maiar: Very powerful.

Nazgul: Not very powerful.


Galadriel was more powerful than any Ringwraith but this is hardly enough to argue that she's going to come anywhere near Luthien.

[Mithalwen]

Eomer your argument is overly simplistic - their is a wide continuum of power among the maiar.

And Luthien is not a Maiar................ and I still loathe her....

[davem]

Surely the 'power' of the Maiar comes principally from knowledge - or perhaps 'gnosis' - they were the offspring of Eru's thought & took part in the Music. Therefore the question is one of 'mind' over 'matter'. They were different in essence to the Eruhini. Their power over the stuff of Arda comes from their helping in its creation & thus from their knowledge of its nature. The fact that a hroa is not part of their nature, whereas it is for the Eruhini, displays a mastery over it that none of the Eruhini have. Maiar can exist without bodies (nobody drag Melkor into this, please!), Elves & Men cannot.

Where does this leave Luthien? From her father she gained the nature of the Eldar, from her mother, something else. We have to remember that when she first appeared (BoLT) the incarnate Ainur married & had children, so Luthien's birth was not that unusual. By the 'end' we have a situation where the only Ainur to have a child was Melian.

In short, while Galadriel may have reached the greatest 'height' possible for one of the Eruhini, Luthien, by her very nature, had inherited the 'divinity' of her mother. Her 'power' comes from her nature, which is unique, coming, through Melian, almost directly from the mind of Eru. We don't know what either of them were capable of - we only know what they did.

Luthien is long gone, having passed beyond the circles of the world. In herself she embodied the tri-partate nature of Ainur, Eldar & Atani. No-one, before or since had done that - her decendants retained a strain of all three created races because of her. Galadriel did little in comparison - however much she contributed in the fight against Sauron. Through Luthien the 'Maian' spirit entered into mankind, even down to the Fourth Age & beyond.

I'd put Luthien ahead of Galadriel for that reason alone. If 'power' has anything to do with affecting the world, changing the present & the future, Luthien must be supreme.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

This is a pretty straightforward topic. Galadriel does not come close to Luthien, even with Nenya.

Mith, how could you loathe Luthien? She did only good and she did no bad. She was as close to perfection as an earthly being could be. Surely only Melkor and his disciples could loathe such good!