And it slips through our fingers

[Lathriel]

I feel that because technology is becoming more widly available to everybody and that it is cheaper the importance of quality has lessened.
E.G everyone is getting an ipod or discman but nobody tries to (or cares) to figure out if the sound quality of their headphones are any good.

With the war machine that Saruman created, quality also did not seem to matter, as long as everybody had a sword that could do damage.

Maybe Tolkien also felt that with the introduction of machines and cars etc. the quality of life would decrease.

But I am rambling and I am mixing up my thoughts. Still this is just a little idea.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Going back to the original discussion on the thread a little, one quote that popped into my head (and I can't quite remember for the life of me where it appears, probably in ROTK) that someone asks Gandalf whether everything in ME will fade or be corrupted, and Gandalf says simply "That is its fate."

Thinking about this statement a bit, Gandalf has just spent 2000 years combating Sauron, trying to preserve all that is fair (or at least something that is fair, as his statement to Denethor about he (Gandalf) also being a Steward indicates), even though he knows his effort is ultimately "futile" in the sense that nothing he manages to save is destined to ultimately endure. Furthermore, he never seems to act as if he's consigned to a futile task (melancholy, as Elrond and Galadriel both appear at times)

Since it seems that Gandalf in many ways represents Tolkien's ideals, it may be interesting to speculate on how Gandalf's statement reflects or embodies Tolkien's own view on the Long Defeat, and on the necessity and rationale behind fighting an unwinnable struggle.

BTW, I'm not sure that the religious or Catholic view would necessarily imply the concept of the Long Defeat. Certainly one of the tenets of Christianity is that Man will always be flawed, and a utopia cannot be achieved without divine intervention. But it doesn't seem clear (to me, anyway) that this implies that the world must necessarily get continually worse, just that it has severe limitations on its ability to get continuously better. The religious view antithetical to the Enlightenment, is certainly not the only one which has ever existed in Christianity (Scholasticism comes to mind), and if one looks closely either at the historical record of world history or religious scripture, one sees that in times past, things have often been extremely problematic. It's just that we tend to be more preoccupied with the problems of our own time.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Angry Hill Troll

I'm not sure that the religious or Catholic view would necessarily imply the concept of the Long Defeat. Certainly one of the tenets of Christianity is that Man will always be flawed, and a utopia cannot be achieved without divine intervention. But it doesn't seem clear (to me, anyway) that this implies that the world must necessarily get continually worse, just that it has severe limitations on its ability to get continuously better.

Actually, orthodox Christianity (both Roman Catholic and Protestant forms) have in common an "eschatology" (teaching on 'last things') saying that things will get worse until the glorious end.

I will not quote at length from Scripture; you can take a look for yourself. There is some of this type of writing in Daniel and Zechariah in the Old Testament. But this eschatology is derived especially from the New Testament: Matthew 24 and 25, Luke 21, the first letter to the Corinthians, ch. 15, 2 Peter 3, and, of course, Revelation (the whole book).

[Guinevere]

Originally Posted by Angry Hill Troll

Going back to the original discussion on the thread a little, one quote that popped into my head (and I can't quite remember for the life of me where it appears, probably in ROTK) that someone asks Gandalf whether everything in ME will fade or be corrupted, and Gandalf says simply "That is its fate."

I think I know where your quote comes from: in the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in U.T. there are 2 versions of the origin of the second Elessar:
In the first, Galadriel speaks with Gandalf because she longs for Aman and yet is unwilling (or not permitted) to leave ME:

She sighed and said: "I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home." Then Olórin said: "Would you then have the Elessar?" And Galadriel said: "Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? And Enerdhil is gone who made it." "Who knows?" said Olórin. "Surely," said Galadriel, "they have passed over Sea, as almost all fair things beside. And must Middle-earth then fade and perish for ever?" "That is its fate." said Olórin. "Yet for a little while that might be amended, if the Elessar should return. For a little, until the Days of Men are come."

Then Gandalf (Olórin) gives her the Elessar, as a gift, or rather a loan, from Yavanna.
( In the other version this talk is between Galadriel and Celebrimbor, and the words are very similar, but then Celebrimbor makes the second Elessar and gives it to Galadriel out of love for her..)

Galadriel is grieved because the living things around her that she has loved fade and die -

"So that the land of my dwelling is filled with regret that no spring can redress."

(as she tells Celebrimbor)
But that's the way it is : all living thing must fade and perish - but new life is continually born - after every winter there is a spring with new leaves and flowers. But this seems apparently no comfort to the exiled Elves. They want no change, they want to keep things exactly as they were.

Angry hill troll wrote:
Thinking about this statement a bit, Gandalf has just spent 2000 years combating Sauron, trying to preserve all that is fair (or at least something that is fair, as his statement to Denethor about he (Gandalf) also being a Steward indicates), even though he knows his effort is ultimately "futile" in the sense that nothing he manages to save is destined to ultimately endure. Furthermore, he never seems to act as if he's consigned to a futile task (melancholy, as Elrond and Galadriel both appear at times)

I don't think this particular quote is meant to mean that everything on Earth will continually deteriorate, and that all the efforts of Gandalf are in vain.

And in general I think it is so too: many species have been extinct, but others have succeeded them, much that was beautiful and good is lost for ever, (but of course not everything in the past was good and beautiful! and many evil things have have been overcome as well.) but there are always new good and beautiful things too.(But new ugly and evil things as well, alas! Humanity as a whole doesn't seem to have learnt much: the same mistakes are made all over again. ) The older one gets the more things that one cares for, change or have vanished for ever, and one tends to remember mostly the good things, and to gloryfy the past. I think the mentality of the Elves in the third age is a bit like those of old people, though their bodily appearance is still unchanged.
I must say that I rather sympathize with their view, and what Tolkien wrote in his essay "On Fairy-stories" about "escape" resonates deeply with me:

It is indeed an age of "improved means to deteriorated ends". It is part of the essential malady of such days - producing the desire to escape, not indeed from life, but from our present time and self-made misery - that we are acutely conscious both of the ugliness of our works and of their evil.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

The older one gets the more things that one cares for, change or have vanished for ever, and one tends to remember mostly the good things, and to gloryfy the past. I think the mentality of the Elves in the third age is a bit like those of old people, though their bodily appearance is still unchanged.

I like the analogy of Elves being a little like old people in that they lament the passing of things they have known well. Though with Elves I sometimes think that they experience grief in a wholly different way to how a mortal might experience it. Not only do Elves see the natural world around them changing, they also see or have seen (now they shut themselves off from it) how Men also wither and die.

These things simply cannot be saved in any way, there is simply nothing that they can do about it. When Men see such things wither away then it may bring to mind their own withering and passing, but for Elves, they can only see an eternity where those things will never be seen again. Elves, being detached from Death, I think cannot understand how withering is a part of the world, so their grief is different.

Maybe it is a demonstration of Gandalf's wisdom that he has at least some understanding of how mortality might feel, while the Elves have a different perception. Perhaps it is because Gandalf has received some kind of knowledge from Eru?