Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr!...Well, sort of...

[Lúmen Rómello]

Some notes on the Orthodox Christian view of Hell and Hades:

First off, like has been already said, Christ didn't descend into Hell in the sense that we're using it here (the place of punishment for the Evil One, his angels, and unrepentant sinners), even though the Liturgy in English tends to use that term. He descended into Sheol/Hades, a place of waiting, where all the dead, righteous and unrighteous, waited for Him. While there, He raised all the righteous ones with Him (they ascended to Paradise after the Resurrection) and bound the Devil until the time when he would be released again (like is written in the Apocalypse), as well as removing the curse of eternal death from the world (like it says in the Paschal Hymn :"Christ is risen from the Dead, trampling down Death by death and upon those in the Tombs bestowing life!").

Also, the Theotokos didn't ever go into hell. There are pious traditions and tales (along the lines of the Inferno) saying that she did, but they're just that: pious traditions and tales, not dogma or doctrine.

Another thing: the Eastern Christian idea of Hell is rather different from the Western Christian conception of the same. While the West tends to view Hell as a seperation from God, the East does not. After all, the Scriptures do say (and I'm paraphrasing from the Psalms here) that "if I ascend to Heaven, Thou art there; if I descend into Hell, Thou art there." We say that God is "everywhere and fillest all things;" how can you run from omnipresence? The Orthodox view of Hell is rather startling to those who are accustomed to the Western view: Heaven and Hell are the same thing. It's the perception of that Reality that's different for each.

We believe that mankind's ultimate end is to stand in the presence of God and to be illumined by the Divine Light. Now, imagine if you will that you have spent your life in fervent service to Him, striving every day to come closer to Him and to be conformed more and more to His image, and that you love Him with all of your being. Such an experience would be pure bliss, would it not? Now, imagine that you've spent your life running from Him, and hating Him with every fibre of your being. Wouldn't be pure torment to be loved perfectly by One Who knows you perfectly for all of eternity?

Here's an analogy for you: there are a pair of twins, raised since infancy in a darkened mansion (nearly pitch-black), both wearing sunglasses. One, upon hearing of something called 'the sun', decides to learn about it and accustom himself to the light. He spends his time looking at various sources of light (lightbulbs, fires, etc.), reading about the sun, and occaisionally looking at it in a darkened mirror. As his eyes get accustomed to the light, he's able to stand greater and greater amounts of it for longer times. Now, the other twin, after hearing about the sun, carries on about his typical day-to-day business, never bothering to find out more about it or accustom his eyes to light. Eventually, there comes a day when both of them are taken out of the house and into the full sunlight, and made to look upon the sun in all his noonday brilliance. For the one who has accustomed himself to the light, he'll be able to behold the sun and observe all its brilliant mysteries. For the one who hasn't accustomed himself to the light, the sun will sear him and the experience will be pure torment.

Now, so far as Arda goes, it doesn't seem like there's any hell. The closest that it seems to come is the Halls of Mandos, and even those correspond most closely to Hades or Limbo rather than Hell. Perhaps the Professor had heard of the Orthodox view of Hell as the Presence of God. Maybe he hadn't. Who knows? Regardless, Arda seems to be missing anything that I would consider "Hell". Of course, there's only so far that Arda and Tellus can be compared, since they are distinct creations and the ties that bind them are tenuous at times.

I'll elaborate more later and answer any questions that arise from this. I've got to leave work now, though.

-LR

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I had an epiphany of sorts in class the other day, hit Search just now, and found this lovely thread that I decided died too early.

I'm reading Dante's Inferno. I'm seeing parallels. I thought I'd share them.

Y'all make mention of where hell is on Middle Earth. The Paths of the Dead. Inferno. Let me compare:

Outside the entrance:

Originally Posted by The Muster of Rohan

On the threshold sat an old man, aged beyond guess of years; tall and kingly he had been, but now he was withered as an old stone [...] The way is shut. The way is shut, his voice said again. It was made by those who are Dead, and the Dead keep it, until the time comes. The way is shut.

Originally Posted by Canto III

Then, at the river-- an old man in a boat: white-haired, as he drew closer shouting at us [...] And you there-- leave this place, you living soul, stand clear of these who are dead!

An old man on the borders of the lands of the Dead warning the living that they are not suffered to pass.

Originally Posted by The Passing of the Grey Company

'It is not madness, lady,' he answered; 'for I go on a path appointed.'

Originally Posted by Canto III

Thus it is willed where everything may be simply if it is willed. Therefore, oblige, and ask no more.

When questioned of the journey inside, those entering the lands of the Dead explain that they are following an order from Higher Up. Aragorn's path has been foreseen and Dante's was willed by those whose will is not up for debate.

Originally Posted by The Passing of the Grey Company

Then Aragorn led the way, and such was the strength of his will in that hour that all the Dunedain and their horses followed him.

Originally Posted by The Passing of the Grey Company

The horses would not pass the threatening stone, until the riders dismounted and led them about.

Originally Posted by Canto III

Then, with good cheer in his expression to encourage me, he placed his hand on mine: so, trusting to my guide, I followed him among things undisclosed.

The companions were terrified to enter, but based on confidence of the leader, entered the most fearful place imaginable willingly.

Originally Posted by The Passing of the Grey Company

"But the oath that they broke was to fight against Sauron, and they must fight therefore, if they are to fulfil it."

Originally Posted by The Passing of the Grey Company

'And when all this land is clean of the servents of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart forever. For I am Elessar, Isildur's heir of Gondor.'

Originally Posted by Canto III

This is the sorrowful state of souls unsure, whose lives earned neither honor nor bad fame. And they are mingled with angels of that base sort who, neither rebellious to God nor faithful to Him, chose neither side, but kept themselves apart-- now Heaven expels them, not to mar its splendor, and Hell rejects them, lest the wicked of heart take glory over them.

Once inside, they found the tormented spirits of those who refused to pick a side/fight. The fence-sitters, so to speak.

The Paths of the Dead reflect Dante's first circle of Hell.

Or I'm insane. Take your pick and discuss, if you will. You never know, I might use some of your thoughts in a paper I'm planning to write.

[Raynor]

The main difference I see between the two tales is that the king of the mountains's accursed people are a singular (mostly irrepeatable in itself) and temporary case - though your comparison makes for a vey interesting reading .

[As a side note, the case of the forgotten people seems rather problematic to me: did Isildur indeed have the power to alter the design of other Men, in a rather significant manner? Only the valar could do that, Imo, and they thoroughly avoid it.]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

What fascinated me was a line of somewhat irreverent thought: Is Aragorn supposed to be a parallel to Jesus? Wow, allegories are bad, says Tolkien. And yet his "Hell" is parallel to that of a clearly allegorical story.

The descendent of one for whom the dwellers of the place did not fight is one given the power to descend into the place and release them from their fate.

The Harrowing of Hell.

It made me think a lot. The King of Men.

[davem]

I'm not sure that the Paths of the Dead was a strict allegory of Hell. In 'The Rivers & Beacon Hills of Gondor' Tolkien gives some background to the place:

The Men of Darkness built temples, some of great size, usually surrounded by dark trees, often in caverns (natural or delved) in secret valleys of mountain-regions; such as the dreadful halls and passages under the Haunted Mountain beyond the Dark Door (Gate of the Dead) in Dunharrow. The special horror of the closed door before which the skeleton of Baldor was found was probably due to the fact that the door was the entrance to an evil temple hall to which Baldor had come, probably without opposition up to that point. But the door was shut in his face, and enemies that had followed him silently came up and broke his legs and left him to die in the darkness, unable to find any way out.

So, it was originally the site of a temple of Sauron (Morgoth?) worship. Of course, this was a later writing, & so we can't necesarily take this as being in Tolkien's mind when he wrote LotR. We do know that Tolkien expressed a dislike of Dante's theology (whether William's obsessive love of Dante played a part in this is anyone's guess...)

And what reason Baldor had for wanting to get in there (did he know there was such a temple beyond the door?) is another question...

[Lalwendë]

The main drawback as I see it is that the Men of Dunharrow were not 'fence-sitters', they were oath breakers and as such had done wrong. Given what Tolkien wrote later about "evil temple", maybe he wanted to show that these Men had been engaged in worship of Sauron/Morgoth and that it was this that led them astray and made them break their oaths.

There is just one major drawback to this theory - that Baldor must have lived quite some time after Isildur. Perhaps there were still Men who wanted to follow this 'cult', worshipping the dead, even?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The main drawback as I see it is that the Men of Dunharrow were not 'fence-sitters', they were oath breakers and as such had done wrong.

What of the angels that chose not to fight with God that also inhabit that land between the Evil Forest and the river Acheron?

Talk about breaking an oath.

And yes, I'm arguing to inspire discussion and fun of that sort.