Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The WK could not have killed Gandalf, only a being of similar or greater stature, such as a Balrog, or Sauron, could have done so

At the expense of repeating myself. WHY?

Did David beat Goliath?

Did a hobbit and a woman beat the Witch King?

Does a favourite win every horse race?

What a boring place the world would be if only the strongest won every battle.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Essex

Did David beat Goliath?

No, God beat Goliath.

Did a hobbit and a woman beat the Witch King?

No, the Dagger of Westernesse beat the Witch-King.

Does a favourite win every horse race?

The difference between one horse and another is nothing like the difference between a Man and one of the more powerful Maiar.

What a boring place the world would be if only the strongest won every battle.

We're not talking about our world, we're talking about a world where there are different tiers of spiritual puissance among physical beings. The Witch-King could only have defeated Gandalf if Gandalf had allowed it through a willful restraint of power, as he did in his duel with the Balrog.

Because Gandalf is not an ordinary creature like the others you mentioned, including the WK. He is an angelic spirit. Only a similar being could destroy him. There is no weapon, even that of the one used by Merry to defeat the WK, that could harm Gandalf.

Argonath must be pleased about how many posts and views his thread has had!

[Essex]

All your points re gandalf definately being able to defeat the Witch King are based on one thing:

CONJECTURE


Was Sauron the greatest, strongest 'being' on Middle-earth - Perhaps. Was he beaten by a pair of Hobbits? Yes.

As has been metioned before on this thread, Gandalf was not 'allowed' to use his great power in the use force on Middle-earth. If he HAD been allowed to, why not storm the Tower himself?

I find it amusing that so many people have a 100% certainty that Gandalf would have beaten the Witch King in a fight. I am saying that it is NOT certain.

Show me proof that Gandalf would definately defeat the Witch King. You can't.

PS - the sword of westernesse WAS instrumental in defeating the Witch King, but it did not kill him alone. The fatal blow was delivered by Eowyn, after Merry had 'unknit' the spell holding the WK's sinews together. Don't detract from the hobbit and maiden's heroism by saying a sword alone killed the witch king.

Sauron was defeated because his major source of power in the One Ring was destroyed. The WK was defeated because his spell of immunity to ordinary weapons was broken. But these circumstances cannot be applied to Gandalf - there is no way he could be defeated unless there was somebody of the required power to break him and his staff (i.e. like how Saruman was stripped of his power and removed from the Order by Gandalf the White).

Who is there that could do that? Gandalf does not depend on a spell to protect him like the WK, nor the Ring as with Sauron. As with Balrogs, only a greater power is assured of victory against the Istari. They are therefore not as vulnerable as the enemy.

As for Gandalf storming the Dark Tower - Eru forbid the Istari to reveal their true power against the enemy, so he could not have done so. Eru intended to get them to reunite the free people of the world against Sauron, rather than ask them to have direct battle with the Darklord (which would take away any point writing LOTR the way it was at all). Even if Gandlaf had demanded a duel, as Sauron belonged to an even higher Mair order, he would most likely break him through possessing the greater power.

[Essex]

As for Gandalf storming the Dark Tower - Eru forbid the Istari to reveal their true power against the enemy, so he could not have done so.

that's exactly what I'm saying. he was forbidden to use his 'true' powers in force against the enemy.

So how could he have defeated the Witch King?

I did not say Gandalf would definately defeat the WK, even though he could if he was not restrained of his full power. I meant rather that the WK could not defeat Gandalf. The Wizard's role in the confrontation was to hold off the WK. Gandalf would have only revealed his true power if he had really been forced to and had no choice, as with his battle against a foe of his equal, the Balrog of Morgoth. Even against the Balrog, the Wizard tried to avoid a direct battle by breaking the bridge at the feet of his enemy. He tried instead to hold off the Balrog.

Originally Posted by Mansun

I did not say Gandalf would definately defeat the WK, even though he could if he was not restrained of his full power. I meant rather that the WK could not defeat Gandalf. The Wizard's role in the confrontation was to hold off the WK. Gandalf would have only revealed his true power if he had really been forced to and had no choice, as with his battle against a foe of his equal, the Balrog of Morgoth. Even against the Balrog, the Wizard tried to avoid a direct battle by breaking the bridge at the feet of his enemy. He tried instead to hold off the Balrog.

Essex, I agree that your ideas are in line with what Tolkien had in mind, but the above post is still as good as fact.

[alatar]

A bit harsh, obloquy, don't cha think?

And it amazes me that this horse, dead for some time now, still gets whipped.

And to make a much repeated point, one must consider that (1) we are in the Movies part of the forum and so (2) we must restrict ourselves to Peter Jackson's Middle Earth and not that of Professor Tolkien.

Not that that ends the discussion.

Cheers.

I agree Altar to some extent. But Tolkein's world will always be compared to PJ's version of ME.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by alatar

A bit harsh, obloquy, don't cha think?

And it amazes me that this horse, dead for some time now, still gets whipped.

And to make a much repeated point, one must consider that (1) we are in the Movies part of the forum and so (2) we must restrict ourselves to Peter Jackson's Middle Earth and not that of Professor Tolkien.

Not that that ends the discussion.

Cheers.

I only know how to beat dead old hobby horses. If I'm not posting about Gandalf, I'm probably posting about Balrogs.

I did forget that we're in the forum for the movies, though.

[Essex]

Obloquy.

let me explain the argument.

My argument is for posters who say that Gandalf could definatley defeat the Witch King need to show me proof that Gandalf could do this. They cannot, including your attempt on your last post to me. They can offer only conjecture, however well pointed out. And now I'm talking about the books, never mind the film.

All my points above are to show that The Lord of the Rings, if it shows anything, is to show that the weak/ the common man etc can defeat the Strong.

It's not a a case of my dad's bigger than you're dad so he can beat you up.

And therefore, I am stating that if a certain being is stronger than another being in the books, it does not give us certainty that that being will alwys win.

Do you understand my point now? If you don't, that's a pity, but one thing you have done is shown me your quality with your last reply to me. It's a pity we have comments like this on the forums.