The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[davem]

I think Eru would have been aware of what Saruman would do - but that He didn't plan it. In Middle-earth there is free will but there are also consequences of free will. Saruman chose freely his road & brought his doom on himself. Eru knew everything that would happen - including when & how He would intervene personally, but to control everything all the time would have made the creation pointless - why not simply sit there in eternity & daydream?

Eru creates because it is His nature to create - He creates free creatures because that is the height of the Creator's art. for Him to have planned Saruman's treason means that he also planned his fate - which would either make Saruman little more than a robot, or worse, a victim, forced against his will to act in a way that was against his nature with no means to avoid the consequences.

[Folwren]

Well...this is a whole question of 'is there free will or not?' then, isn't it? And as I've never been able to answer that question here in real life, I can't very well answer it for Middle Earth. I think that Eru is Tolkien's character for God, and so that whoever thinks that there is free will here on Earth will think that there is free will in Middle Earth, and those that believe God handles everything and no one has any free will here, will think the same for there.

So, unless it says otherwise, somewhere in the many histories of that world, I don't know if there is a real answer to this question...just a matter of opinion.

I have no answer.

[burrahobbit]

Nobody is under Eru's "command," but they all do what He "wants."

[mormegil]

Free will is an interesting arguement and correct me if I'm wrong Mansun but it seems to me that you are in essence asking more about the relation of predestination and free will. Being that Eru is omnipotent the roles of everybody could be predestined could they not? However this goes against free will. I am of the opinion that an omnipotent being Eru (in Tolkien's world) or God knows exactly what every individual will do under a given set of circumstances. Does this take away from that individual's free will? No, it most definately doesn't.

The Istari were given certain roles to perform and they have their agency to decide what to do and what temptations to give into. Eru would know how Sauruman would act under certain conditions but he would not prohibit his errant ways even though they were against his initial charge to the Istari. I like to think of it foreordiantion as opposed to predestination. Before they came to Middle-earth the Istari were given certain roles to fulfill, they have their agency to choose how to fulfill them. They can either succeed or fail. Each is a distinct possibility, otherwise there is no true free agency.

[Gurthang]

You might find this interesting.

For those of you who don't want to read it, or don't have the time, this discussion of predestination versus free will was brought up. I quoted the Silmarillion where Iluvatar tells the Valar that no theme can be played but his and that even if they tried to go against His will, they would only become his instruments for things more beautiful. I pointed to that as saying that Eru predestined everything.

But later, davem pointed out another quote that said that Men could shape their own lives apart from the Music. So it seems that Iluvatar has made a plan that everyone must follow, except men, who can do their own thing.

So what about Saruman. Perhaps, in the form of a man, he was able to choose for himself what he really wanted. He chose away from what Eru desired for him, and almost ruined all hope.

Yet you could make a case that Saruman's treachery was also part of the plan, and only 'made things more beautiful'. If he had not pushed against Theoden, then perhaps Rohan never would have come to Gondor's aid. So, indirectly, Saruman caused the winning of the battle before Minas Tirith, and incidently the victory over Sauron. But maybe that's stretching it.

[burrahobbit]

So what about Saruman. Perhaps, in the form of a man, he was able to choose for himself what he really wanted.

Absolutely not. It doesn't matter what you look like.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Yet you could make a case that Saruman's treachery was also part of the plan, and only 'made things more beautiful'. If he had not pushed against Theoden, then perhaps Rohan never would have come to Gondor's aid. So, indirectly, Saruman caused the winning of the battle before Minas Tirith, and incidently the victory over Sauron. But maybe that's stretching it.

All we know is that all but Men are bound by the Music - ie, the Noldor were destined to play a part in Middle-earth, so they would have returned there in some way....but they didn't have to return in the way, & for the specific reasons they did, so even they had some degree of free will. Feanor could have, for instance, allowed the Silmarils to be broken to heal the trees (which may not have worked - Yavanna only believes that she could have saved the Trees), & the Valar could have decided to send a force there earlier to confront Morgoth. So, the Noldor would have ended up playing the part they did play but in some other way. Feanor may have been destined all along to die as he did, in Middle-earth, but his freedom lay in the fact that he could choose the road he took to get to his death there. Saruman, as Gurthang points out, did ultimately enable the Rohirrim to come to the aid of Minas Tirith & thereby actually did what he was sent to do despite all his efforts to the contrary. Saruman may have been destined to die as he did in the Shire, but he could have fallen defending Frodo against Wormtongue. At that point he would have returned into the West.

This allows free will even to those bound by the Music - they can make their choices & face the consequences of their choices while still remaining within the confines set by the Music. Their ultimate destiny is to act out the Music but their freedom is in the way they live it out & what happens to them as individuals as a result of what they do.

The way I see it is that there are certain 'points' in time & space where certain things will happen, but those bound by the Music can choose how & why they will get there.

Of course, this brings in the problem of the freedom of Men to act beyond the Music. If Men can choose to do things which aren't foreordained by the Music then they will create situations which conflict with what the Elves & Valar/Maiar are programmed to do. This would cause problems for those who have to live in accord with the Music - if Men use their freedom to make changes, that may make it difficult, if not impossible for the Elves to do what they are 'driven' to do.

Perhaps this explains, 1, why they increasingly withdrew from the world - Men were changing it so much that it became impossible for the Elves to live out their destinies, & 2, why the Valar also palyed a less & less prominent role in the world.

From this point of view, & as Eru must have realised, the Elves had to be given a place apart. Which would mean that the Elves were always intended to leave Middle-earth, & that this was set out in the Music (hence their innate desire to go into the West) - not so much because of any specific purpose, but rather because, having given Men such freedom of action, Eru realised that they had to be gotten out of the way for their own good & peace of mind. They played their part as they were destined to do - in whatever way they chose to - & at a certain point they would be taken away in order that they would not become a 'stumbling block' to the freedom of Men.

[Formendacil]

I think the freedom of men can be likened to a play...

Eru is the scriptwriter and the director. He wrote it, and decides how it ought to happen.

Elves, Valar, and all those bound by the Music are the scripted actors. They have lines to memorise and specific parts to play. In the event that they forget a line, or have to respond to a messed up one, they can improvise, but they are still following a basic script.

Men, on the other hand, are thrown onstage with no script, no memorisation. Think of them as gifted improvisers. They can say or do anything in response to what the scripted actors are doing or saying. They have to follow the basic guidelines of reacting to things that are actually happening/have happened, but they are not bound by the script.

Of course, this means that the Elves, who are bound by the script, are doing a lot more improv of their own as a result, but they are still acting within the limits of their characters and themes as set out by the Director. What they do will obviously affect the improv Men, but what the Men do will also affect the broad script of the Director.

Anyway, those are my thoughts... I'll go and digest them now...

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Nobody is under Eru's "command," but they all do what He "wants."

Explain please. Because it makes it seem that Eru wanted Melkor to become evil, Eru wanted the Kin-slaying to occur, Eru wanted Saruman to be treacherous, etc...

[burrahobbit]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Explain please. Because it makes it seem that Eru wanted Melkor to become evil, Eru wanted the Kin-slaying to occur, Eru wanted Saruman to be treacherous, etc...

Basically. It worked out for the best, didn't it? I mean, snow is pretty cool. And clouds, I like those.