The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[Gurthang]

You might find this interesting.

For those of you who don't want to read it, or don't have the time, this discussion of predestination versus free will was brought up. I quoted the Silmarillion where Iluvatar tells the Valar that no theme can be played but his and that even if they tried to go against His will, they would only become his instruments for things more beautiful. I pointed to that as saying that Eru predestined everything.

But later, davem pointed out another quote that said that Men could shape their own lives apart from the Music. So it seems that Iluvatar has made a plan that everyone must follow, except men, who can do their own thing.

So what about Saruman. Perhaps, in the form of a man, he was able to choose for himself what he really wanted. He chose away from what Eru desired for him, and almost ruined all hope.

Yet you could make a case that Saruman's treachery was also part of the plan, and only 'made things more beautiful'. If he had not pushed against Theoden, then perhaps Rohan never would have come to Gondor's aid. So, indirectly, Saruman caused the winning of the battle before Minas Tirith, and incidently the victory over Sauron. But maybe that's stretching it.

[burrahobbit]

So what about Saruman. Perhaps, in the form of a man, he was able to choose for himself what he really wanted.

Absolutely not. It doesn't matter what you look like.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Yet you could make a case that Saruman's treachery was also part of the plan, and only 'made things more beautiful'. If he had not pushed against Theoden, then perhaps Rohan never would have come to Gondor's aid. So, indirectly, Saruman caused the winning of the battle before Minas Tirith, and incidently the victory over Sauron. But maybe that's stretching it.

All we know is that all but Men are bound by the Music - ie, the Noldor were destined to play a part in Middle-earth, so they would have returned there in some way....but they didn't have to return in the way, & for the specific reasons they did, so even they had some degree of free will. Feanor could have, for instance, allowed the Silmarils to be broken to heal the trees (which may not have worked - Yavanna only believes that she could have saved the Trees), & the Valar could have decided to send a force there earlier to confront Morgoth. So, the Noldor would have ended up playing the part they did play but in some other way. Feanor may have been destined all along to die as he did, in Middle-earth, but his freedom lay in the fact that he could choose the road he took to get to his death there. Saruman, as Gurthang points out, did ultimately enable the Rohirrim to come to the aid of Minas Tirith & thereby actually did what he was sent to do despite all his efforts to the contrary. Saruman may have been destined to die as he did in the Shire, but he could have fallen defending Frodo against Wormtongue. At that point he would have returned into the West.

This allows free will even to those bound by the Music - they can make their choices & face the consequences of their choices while still remaining within the confines set by the Music. Their ultimate destiny is to act out the Music but their freedom is in the way they live it out & what happens to them as individuals as a result of what they do.

The way I see it is that there are certain 'points' in time & space where certain things will happen, but those bound by the Music can choose how & why they will get there.

Of course, this brings in the problem of the freedom of Men to act beyond the Music. If Men can choose to do things which aren't foreordained by the Music then they will create situations which conflict with what the Elves & Valar/Maiar are programmed to do. This would cause problems for those who have to live in accord with the Music - if Men use their freedom to make changes, that may make it difficult, if not impossible for the Elves to do what they are 'driven' to do.

Perhaps this explains, 1, why they increasingly withdrew from the world - Men were changing it so much that it became impossible for the Elves to live out their destinies, & 2, why the Valar also palyed a less & less prominent role in the world.

From this point of view, & as Eru must have realised, the Elves had to be given a place apart. Which would mean that the Elves were always intended to leave Middle-earth, & that this was set out in the Music (hence their innate desire to go into the West) - not so much because of any specific purpose, but rather because, having given Men such freedom of action, Eru realised that they had to be gotten out of the way for their own good & peace of mind. They played their part as they were destined to do - in whatever way they chose to - & at a certain point they would be taken away in order that they would not become a 'stumbling block' to the freedom of Men.

[Formendacil]

I think the freedom of men can be likened to a play...

Eru is the scriptwriter and the director. He wrote it, and decides how it ought to happen.

Elves, Valar, and all those bound by the Music are the scripted actors. They have lines to memorise and specific parts to play. In the event that they forget a line, or have to respond to a messed up one, they can improvise, but they are still following a basic script.

Men, on the other hand, are thrown onstage with no script, no memorisation. Think of them as gifted improvisers. They can say or do anything in response to what the scripted actors are doing or saying. They have to follow the basic guidelines of reacting to things that are actually happening/have happened, but they are not bound by the script.

Of course, this means that the Elves, who are bound by the script, are doing a lot more improv of their own as a result, but they are still acting within the limits of their characters and themes as set out by the Director. What they do will obviously affect the improv Men, but what the Men do will also affect the broad script of the Director.

Anyway, those are my thoughts... I'll go and digest them now...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I think the freedom of men can be likened to a play......

Like it.

Or it could be like being on a road which forks only to join up again at a particular point - as a Valar, Maiar or Elf you get to choose which fork you take & so what experiences you will have & the state you're in when you get to the place where the road joins up again, but you don't get to choose not to end up at the place road meets again.

Men, on the other hand, can just build new roads - of course, the terrain will affect where they build.....

[HerenIstarion]

Burra's every post on the thread is a jewel. I officially issue a note to everyone in sight of these to rate them.

[Ar-Pharazon]

A question that has boggled the greatest minds in philosophy and science. Are we here to play a role or do we just take up space (especially on BD )

I liked Davem's quote that men were allowed to build their own roads as opposed to just following them. It seems that Tolkien wrote Eru as a being of infinity where nothing was beyond him and all beings were created by him or as a result of him. So did this road that Davem and the others spoke of start here. He created the Valar/Gods and the greatest of them were Manwe and Melkor/Morgoth. Manwe seemed to represent all that was good (one path) and Melkor represented all that was evil (a split in the path). Manwe was given a land and world for him to govern while Melkor took a land for his own and built it to his designs.

So the question comes up are the people of middle earth free from predestination. Obviously they are not, fate seems to play a big role in the books, as many characters meet their fates befitting their lives and choices. In the case of Saruman, Gandalf, Radagsat(SP) and the other two Istari they were sent to contest the will of Sauron. Saruman travelled to the blackland with the two wizards and only he returned, he studied his enemy intently only to instead hate him, become enamored in his plands and view him rather as a competitor or rival. In his attempt to grab power he inadvertently helps the fall of Sauron (as discussed above)l Radagast seems to go all lonely animal guy and lives with the lesser creature but aids by giving both Sauron and Gandalf the help with the lesser creatures that indirectly help topple Sauron. While Gandalf seems to move the wills of those who were destined to become major role players in the down fall of Sauron.

It comes to me that all the things of middle earth are subject to Eru's will for they were created of his will. The music that Eru created is the flow of existence and only Eru seems to be the conductor and each person has a part to play in his orchestra.

EZ

[Lhunardawen]

Taking on davem's road comparison...each being bound by the Music has the freedom to choose a fork in the road, but Men are free to build their own roads. But in the end, they will realize that Eru has designed the whole terrain in a manner that they could never have comprehended; whichever paths they chose, they ended up right where Eru wants them to.

Or with Formendacil's play metaphor...the Music-bound people act as the Music sways them, Men do improvizations and affect the whole plot, as well as the former's acting. But once the curtain falls and they all step back to watch how the play went, they will see that Eru has created such a versatile script that though the characters deviate, the ending will be as Eru originally wrote it.

In some cases a road-builder might fall off a cliff or an actor off the stage, but these instances are consequences of their own choices (or temporary blindness ). Eru never meant anyone to be hurt. But being a perfect gentleman, he lets them go or act the way they choose, yet allows them to find out what is beyond the paths they forged, or what their action's repercussions on the story or on their fellow actors are.

Now this brings me to think, is the Men's freedom from the Music a reason for their greater divisiveness and, very loosely, their gullibility as opposed to the Elves? Is this why they are much easier to sway to the side of evil or why they seem to have more 'branches'? Because they have more roads to 'choose from' or more roles to 'assume'?

[HerenIstarion]

I always argued (and this time, and this time and this time too) that Men's freedom is not different from that of other beings of free will while men are alive, their special kind of freedom being expressed in them 'leaving the confines of the world' upon their death, as opposed to Valar/Maiar/Elves who are 'bound within confines of the world' while it lasts

So, it's always choice of the fork of the road for the walker, and choice of play in accord with conduct or in disaccord with it for the musician in each respective analogy.

Yes/No, Do/Don't.

Traditioanlly, consider the following:

'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house'