Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

Also, Aragorn would have almost certainly been slain by the Balrog had he come to square up to this foe on the Bridge in Moria. Yet he held off five of the Nazgul all at once.

Interesting.

[Essex]

Two quotes from Tolkien in his letters book that seem to sum up this entire argument

On the Witch King:

They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

On Gandalf's elevated powers:

The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' – no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgûl to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed — and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands.

So on one hand we have elveated, Demonic, powers for the Witch King, and on the other we have an elevated power for Gandalf, who can use his powers as an 'Angel' - but not in a violent way.

So in reading this, I think Mansun has hit the best answer (and the Middle Ground), by stating it could well be a stand off. Gandalf could not use his powers (usually witheld by order) to kill the Witch King, but could use these to protect the people of Minas Tirith. Therefore we would have a stalemate.

But as Tolkien himself points out, by Gandalf's organisation of the forces of Mankind, they have come to settle the score with Sauron's forces. Gandalf does not need to use his 'Angelic' powers to withstand the Demonic might of the Witch King. Mankind, in this case the Ride of the Rohirrim, saves the day. As Tolkien states at the begining of the Battle of Pellenor fields, once the Rohirrim turned up, Victory was slipping from the Witch King's grasp. Gandalf the General has won instead of Gandalf the Warrior. We have the same result in the Film as we have in the Book. Mankind, through the workings of Gandalf, has saved its own skin.

Anyway, for the last few pages this book has gone from a Movie thread to a book thread.

To take it back to a movie thread, listen to PJ's commentary on why the film makers, in their minds, 'upped ' the WK's power. they needed a real bad arsed baddie for the move goers to get their teeth into. A flaming eye wasn't good enough for them.

Originally Posted by Essex

To take it back to a movie thread, listen to PJ's commentary on why the film makers, in their minds, 'upped ' the WK's power. they needed a real bad arsed baddie for the move goers to get their teeth into. A flaming eye wasn't good enough for them.

I have to ask why didn't then PJ use Sauron in his physical form? I don't think anybody would have been too disppointed to see the Darklord come before the gates of Minas Tirith to command a final assault on Gondor, and assure victory, as the WK alone it appears could not manage this.

Though at the emergence of Rohan, Sauron too would have to retreat back to Mordor, giving an even greater sensation that the Rohirrim saved the day, rather than relying on Gandalf all the time.

[Essex]

I don't think anybody would have been too disppointed to see the Darklord come before the gates of Minas Tirith to command a final assault on Gondor, and assure victory

If this had happened I don't think PJ would be around today, and I wouldn't have seen his trailer to King Kong at the cinema last night!!!!!

[The Only Real Estel]

I don't think anybody would have been too disppointed to see the Darklord come before the gates of Minas Tirith to command a final assault on Gondor, and assure victory

At least no 'non-book readers' would be disappointed

PJ was tossing around the idea of bringing Sauron out in physical form for RotK, & I was throughly (ticked) about it.

If you don't believe me you can always look here, but beware, most of it is in the 'old format'.

Originally Posted by Essex

If this had happened I don't think PJ would be around today, and I wouldn't have seen his trailer to King Kong at the cinema last night!!!!!

So you would not like to see Sauron in physical form, and being forced back by the Rohirrim?! Each to his own, but it would have made one hell of a scene, rather than having Sauron as the watch tower of mordor!

[The Only Real Estel]

Mansun: It would make a good scene, but come on - do you think Sauron would be held back by anyone? He would basically be like he was in the Prolouge (not quite, because he didn't have his Ring), not quite as powerful but no one would have the courage to really take him on. PJ had him beating the crap out of Aragorn if that tells you anything...