The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion

Davem, you're arguing against a point that no one is making.

Posts 16,18,20,23, 25, 27, 33, 39, 54, 55 are what I'm arguing against...

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Time, as we know it, was iniated at the same time as the beginning of Arda. The two are congruent. If, therefore, Arda's matter is wholly separate from the dwelling of Eru, in that it is a part of Ea, and thus a universe self-contained, is it's time not self-contained?

I think this is the point. There may have been process 'before' Arda was created - there were 'movements' in the Music which happened sequentially, but 'Time' only came in with Ea.

Is the 'Music' limited to what happened pre Ea? or does it include the 'performance' of the Music within Time? You cannot speak of a 'before' if there was no Time.

Thus, Arda is also the Music from one point of view. It is the same performance as Ainulindale in a different form. Yet, even within the original Music Men & Elves are introduced by Eru, & so, the freedom of action of Men is present. So, all is not set out in the Music sung by the Ainur. The Music itself is not complete & defined as some of the things sung will not happen. Ea is the same performance within the field of time, not a 'secondary' one. There is neither predestination in the Ainulindale nor in Ea, because they are both aspects of the same thing. I think once you move away from 'linear' thinking, 'before' (=Ainulindale) & 'after' (Ea) & think of the same event taking place in eternity & in Time, the problem disappears. When Tolkien refers to the 'echo' of the Music being heard in water, for instance, I don't think this refers to an 'echo' from the 'past', but an 'echo' 'down' from eternity, where the Music is taking place 'simultaneously'. An Ainur like Melkor is both in eternity singing the Music & performing it within Ea. Men are present in Ea, but they are also present in Eternity, introduced into the Cosmic Music by Eru. Being there, their presence changes the Music in both places/states.