Rocks, Hard Places, etc....

[Durelin]

We're talking about a being who does not operate on the same plane as we do.

A being created by one who does, and formed through words we understand. 'Tis always the most interesting and bewildering part to me.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

OK, so why have I voted in the "no" camp (other than to rub shoulders with the lovely Feanor, that is)....

To answer that, I would like to emphasise the "free" part of free will: freedom implies a lack of constraints, or -- put another way -- an infinitude of possibility. One's will is unfettered by all considerations other than what the will desires.

This is clearly not the case in Middle-Earth. In the world of Eru, one does have choice, but it is extremely limited -- do what Eru/Providence commands or demands of you (the "good") or don't. And even then, choice is limited insofar as the Will or Eru or the Providential Plan will still work out to its conclusion.

Throughout LotR, for example, people are presented with a series of either/or options -- for Frodo it's claim the Ring or resist the Ring; for Sam it's be loyal or disloyal; for Aragorn it's follow the Paths of the Dead or not; for Eomer it's help Aragorn or hinder him, and on and on and on. And all of these choices are really the same choice -- choose between good or bad; to follow those who are doing Eru's work or to hinder them. And like I said above, even those who choose to hinder the Plan still end up helping it along -- Saruman bringing Merry and Pippin to Fangorn, Gollum betraying Frodo, etc.

That is why I say there is no free will in Middle-Earth. 'Free' in the sense that nobody is completely unfettered of the plan or design of Middle-Earth's creator. This is, I would add, an essentially Medieval view of the world -- no surprise givien the Professor's imaginative debt to that world. The absolute freedom of the individual to choose to become or to be or to act in whatever way or form as desired by the individual was unimaginable to the Medieval mind: it was much simpler than that -- do good/what God commands or don't. So the will is operative, but not within a very wide or "free" scope.

[mormegil]

Fordim I understand what you are saying but you make each choice seem so cut and dry. Sure Sam had the choice to be loyal or disloyal but it's a choice in varying degrees. The way you have stated it makes it seem that he's either 100% loyal or 100% disloyal. He possibly could have done more or even still he could have done less and still be considered loyal to Frodo. I think you've made each decision too black and white to be truly valid.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

To answer that, I would like to emphasise the "free" part of free will: freedom implies a lack of constraints, or -- put another way -- an infinitude of possibility. One's will is unfettered by all considerations other than what the will desires.

As stated earlier, no actor with the exception of Eru is without some constraints - even Manwë or Melkor couldn't simply wish the other away. Only Eru has the "infinitude of possibility," and I would say that this too is assumed. Never having been a god, I'm not sure if there are not limits even for an infinite being (like not being able to unmake yourself). Maybe the phantom can attempt to explain such concepts as infinite beinghood to the rest of us...

This is clearly not the case in Middle-Earth. In the world of Eru, one does have choice, but it is extremely limited -- do what Eru/Providence commands or demands of you (the "good") or don't. And even then, choice is limited insofar as the Will or Eru or the Providential Plan will still work out to its conclusion.

You, as the observer, may see the choice of one of the actors as limited or even non-existant, but for the person, the perception of free will is more important than even having truly 100% free will. At no time during Sam's journey from the Shire and back did he try to make one choice yet end with the result of a completely different choice.

Assume the scene where Sam goes off to get water in Mordor. Assume that Sam decides that it's not worth the risk, as Gollum or orcs are lurking near, and so he does not get any water.

Bang! Suddenly his mouth is no longer dry, and his and Frodo's waterskins are filled with water. Surely Sam would think that the Lady (or Peter Jackson ) had something to do with this miracle, and would think that it was a good thing, but you and I would see that Sam's decision regarding the water meant nothing - it was just for show.

It's like when parents give a child a false choice where the parent really doesn't care what the child decides as the choice has already been made by the parent. Great way to screw your kids up as you teach them that no matter what they do, it means nothing. You end up with a passive "what does it matter what I think anyway" or and aggressive rebellious destructive child.

Eru is a better parent than that.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by alatar

Great way to screw your kids up as you teach them that no matter what they do, it means nothing. You end up with a passive "what does it matter what I think anyway" or and aggressive rebellious destructive child.

Or you end up with a low-key, idealistic, and remarkably confused one that's out to change the world, but isn't sure whether it would be more of a comfort to have fate on her side, or free will.

I guess what this debate boils down to is not what we think there is in Middle Earth, but what we want there to be. If it is more of a comfort to think that Eru has a master plan and that it will all work out for the greater good in then end, then you're going to vote that there is fate.

If you would prefer to believe in the unimaginable power of each individual that can be used to effect change, be it for good or evil, and without some divine foresight involved... then you're going to want free will.

Or, if you're like me, you're going to want both depending on momentary whims, and you're going to be confused as all heck because you can't, as cliched as it is, have your cake and eat it too.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I guess what this debate boils down to is not what we think there is in Middle Earth, but what we want there to be. If it is more of a comfort to think that Eru has a master plan and that it will all work out for the greater good in the end, then you're going to vote that there is fate.

If you would prefer to believe in the unimaginable power of each individual that can be used to effect change, be it for good or evil, and without some divine foresight involved... then you're going to want free will.

Or, if you're like me, you're going to want both depending on momentary whims, and you're going to be confused as all heck because you can't, as cliched as it is, have your cake and eat it too.

Isn't the reason that we have a God or gods is to feel like "it will all work out for the greater good in the end"? Someone or something is in control, has a plan, will make it all work, will keep the wolves at bay while we sleep at night? Even as adults are we all looking to and for that all-knowing, caring and loving parent that we had or always wished that we had? Is this what we call God?

What a scary thought to think/know that no one is in control, that there is no plan, that it might not work out and only our own vigilance will keep us safe! It's all up to us.

In another thread I posited that Manwë was the worst ruler in Arda. He always seemed too passive and reactive to me ("Oh, look what Melkor has done. maybe we should do something about that..."). Is this because, as one of the original singers of the Music and 'first-born' of Eru, he relied on this music/fate a little too much?

"It'll all work out, and if not, Papa Eru's up there and he'll set thing to rights," said Manwë as he continued to sit on his throne.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

What a scary thought to think/know that no one is in control, that there is no plan, that it might not work out and only our own vigilance will keep us safe! It's all up to us.

Honestly, that was always reassuring to me. Thinking that my own actions determine my fate means that my actions have consequence. What I do truly matters, and quite honestly, that keeps me really good. Bad karma is not something I want to deal with, so I behave (most of the time) in hopes that if I lead a good life, it will in some way help the world.

Versus thinking that I'm leading a good life because a deity I'm not sure about wants me to for reasons beknownst to Him/Her alone.

And that is no doubt why I chose no. With an All-Powerful Eru calling the shots and having this fantastic ending that only he knows about, but that everyone has a part in creating, it means that your life is not yours, it's His. If you're leading a life that's entirely someone else's, even Eru's, than your decisions are his, not yours.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Honestly, that was always reassuring to me. Thinking that my own actions determine my fate means that my actions have consequence. What I do truly matters, and quite honestly, that keeps me really good. Bad karma is not something I want to deal with, so I behave (most of the time) in hopes that if I lead a good life, it will in some way help the world.

So what you are saying in that, as far as you can perceive, you have free will. Some entity may be up there calling all of the shots, and your whole reality may be a Peter Jackson soundstage (or maybe not; everything would be "bigger" ), but you think that you are a free agent, and so I guess that's all that matters.

How would one distinguish the difference between a world where there is free will and one created by a infinite being with the appearance of free will? Luckily I have better things to think about...

And in regards to "being good," I just see it as the easier way (lowest energy state) to do things - lying, cheating, stealing, being duplicitous, etc just takes too much energy, and with three little ones in my life, I'm tired when I get out of bed in the morning.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

To answer that, I would like to emphasise the "free" part of free will: freedom implies a lack of constraints, or -- put another way -- an infinitude of possibility. One's will is unfettered by all considerations other than what the will desires.

But this cannot be the case in ANY world that our humans minds can imagine existing. In this world, and pretty much any world that we can fictionally pattern on it, we are constrained.

You say that in a perfectly free world, one's will would be unfettered by ALL considerations. Therefore, in that world, if I so WANTED, all I would have to do is WILL it so that I had whatever girlfriend I wanted. Or say that I wanted to forget a relationship. Zap! It's gone, never happened.

In this world, and Arda, people and their wills are subject to various constraints. The contraints of time, physical constraint (restraint? ), the constraints of money, the constaints of character.

Or, in the context of this thread, the constraints of a human mind, which cannot exactly grasp some things... like free will.

Originally Posted by Fordhim

This is clearly not the case in Middle-Earth. In the world of Eru, one does have choice, but it is extremely limited -- do what Eru/Providence commands or demands of you (the "good") or don't. And even then, choice is limited insofar as the Will or Eru or the Providential Plan will still work out to its conclusion.

I would say that if you feel this way about Arda, you must feel the same way about your own life. If those constraints exist in Arda (of time, physics, brains), they also exist in our world.

Originally Posted by Fordhim

That is why I say there is no free will in Middle-Earth. 'Free' in the sense that nobody is completely unfettered of the plan or design of Middle-Earth's creator. This is, I would add, an essentially Medieval view of the world -- no surprise givien the Professor's imaginative debt to that world. The absolute freedom of the individual to choose to become or to be or to act in whatever way or form as desired by the individual was unimaginable to the Medieval mind: it was much simpler than that -- do good/what God commands or don't. So the will is operative, but not within a very wide or "free" scope.

To recap, highlighted are the words I am questioning the most. The plan and design of Eru includes (in Arda) gravity, linear time, and the limitations of sentient minds.

So does this make one have no free will? The same conditions exist in our world, and I would say that I have free will. Would you say that you do?

In essence, that is what I would say this entire question boils down to. If you feel that you, yourself, have no free will, then one would probably say that the inhabitants of Arda have no free will. If one feels, as I do, that he/she has free will, then they would probably agree that those in Arda do. Or so I read it.

So what of it, Master Fordhim: do you say that YOU have free will?

[alatar]

Formendacil's post got me thinking, and this thread is begging the question:

Can your free will be used to negate your own free will? You choose not to choose? I'd place that question with the "Can a god create a rock so heavy that it cannot lift it?" and "Does this make me look fat?"

[mormegil]

By choosing not to choose you still have made a choice...wait didn't rush sing that?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

"[blah blah blah] [something about a celestial voice]/If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."

That the one you're thinking of? Because now it's stuck in my head, and when you have a song in your head that you only know a few words to, that's annoying.

Although it does make one think. So I've been asking friends all morning what they think of this arguement as it applies to RL, and I've gotten two answers. The first is that there is both free will and fate. Free will is you making decisions that appeal to you, and fate is when a higher power steps in to knock you down a few pegs and keeps you from getting cocky or screwing up too badly. The other answer is that there is only free will and that what we like to think of as "fate" is just a series of circumstances that come out in favor of a certain occurence.

So I considered that for awhile, then I considered a post of alatar's (from yesterday morning), and then I considered a few if/then statements, and here's what I came up with:

If you've got an open ended question like with The All-Mighty setting up the rules and then sitting back to watch the game, then you can have both fate/destiny/higher power and free will. Because the Ultimate Plan of Eru is to sit back and see what happens, but not to encourage it or tweak it.

If, on the other hand, you've got a clearly defined (or defined in any way) ending to the story (Eru's got something in mind that's going to happen), then anything you do plays into it and it's already been forseen. If it's already been forseen, it's already happened, and you can't change what's already happened, even if it happens in the future.

Now since I don't think that last bit made any sense at all, I'm just going to give up for awhile, since I suspect that I might be being pig-headed without noticing.

[davem]

The German mystic Meister Eckhart believed that God creates past, present & future from outside time, in eternity. In other words, He is creating the Past all the time. This is because it is His nature to Create & the whole of time & space is in a constant state of being created. So, not only are present & past full of possibilities because of free will, but so is the past.

Eru's plan for the completion & perfection of Ea is precisely that - that in the end it will be complete & perfect. Knowing all hearts & minds & thus what will fulfil them all, & being omnipotent, one can only assume that He will bring about a conclusion that will satisfy all beings, one which will include true freedom for all.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

I'd place that question with the "Can a god create a rock so heavy that it cannot lift it?" and "Does this make me look fat?"

I am not qualified to comment on gods (the rain-goddess tag IS a joke ) but I can sadly vouch that it is generally fat that makes one look fat not garments..... (unless they really do shrink in the wardrobe)

[Durelin]

Free will isn't free without will.

strength
+
desire
+
faith
_______
Will

Will comes from Eru (creator of everything, including will), thus Will = Eru, and Eru = fate, and thus Will = fate.

But it's still free will, when you add it all up.

And yes that made sense in my head...somehow....

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Do you want the free will to answer "Yes"? Or are you fated to answer "No"?

Or the other way around. In which case everything gets confusing.

We should perhaps focus on answerable things, like "Do Werewolves have wings?"

This nonsensical post is brought to you by your friendly neighbourhood nonsense.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Formendhacil

So what of it, Master Fordim: do you say that YOU have free will?

Ah, but that's not really the question here is it? I do not live in Middle-Earth so I do not exist under the same conditions as do the characters in the tales (i.e. the omnipresence of Eru in the Plan on Existence).

So whether I have free will or not is irrelevant...

Although I do wish I could visit M-E once in a while....

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by FordHedgethistleim

So whether I have free will or not is irrelevant...

Untrue. I hate to use the word, but here it comes... canonicity. If you see it based on the book, your answer stands. If canonicity is based on the reader's perceptions, then your answer is a well thought out group of meaningless words.

Since canonicity is [and always has been] based on the reader, then I am entirely accurate in saying that there's not a lick of free will in Middle Earth, since that's how I perceive it.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Since canonicity is [and always has been] based on the reader, then I am entirely accurate in saying that there's not a lick of free will in Middle Earth, since that's how I perceive it.

Not sure what you mean. Maybe this is close; maybe not, but having written some fiction now and again (besides my "what I did at work all day" logs, that is ), there something that I found to be strange. I'd start off writing a story, think that I had a good idea where it would go and how it would all end up. I knew what I wanted the main character(s) to do, where they would begin and end on their story 'arc,' and what I considered to be enough of their histories to be able write the short story that I had in mind.

But a funny thing happened to the pen on the way to the paper...

I'd end up with a completely different story! The character(s) would take off, as I started to breathe life into them, and I would be come less and less the creator of the story and more the observer/recorder of the event. Personal histories would have to be written and rewritten just for my eyes (I always like Tolkien's use of the "Cats of Queen Berúthiel" and what he did to throw that line in the dialogue) so that the character's present state would make more sense, and it was like I needed to ask the character, "So why are you you?" The process would become interactive, and in my less lucid moments I would be having mental discussions/arguments with the characters.

Okay, so I have a few issues...but anyway, does free will exist on the written page? My experience would indicate that it does.

And, as another example, this post started out making some sense, and now look where we are...

[davem]

Makes me think of Tolkien's comments:

I have long ceased to invent. I wait till I know what really happened. Or till it writes itself. (Letter 180)

&

But as it is - though it seems to have grown out of hand, so that parts seem to me rather revealed through me than by me - its purpose is still largely literary (&, if you don't boggle at the term, didactic). (Letter 153)

.
& his comment on a visitor who said:'Of course you don't suppose, do you, that you wrote all that book yourself?'. Tolkien replied:

'No, I don't suppose so any longer.' I have never since been able to suppose so.(Letter 328)

Maybe the real question should be 'Did Tolkien have free will'?

[daeron]

How does one decide? But yes, I would agree there is free will. Elven rebellion in Aman , men turing to the dark side corrupted by Morgoth, Numenorean rebellion etc. have convinced me.

I remember a passage from the Silmarillion where Aule is reprimanded by Eru for creating creatures without free will, which have to sit idle when Aule is busy with other issues. He sets off to strike them down when they bow and shrink, bending in fear of the hammer. Eru tells Aule that this response of the dwarfs is that they have been taken over by Eru and have a free will which Aule was not able to give them.

But another interesting thing I want to discuss. Is everything good attributed to presence of God ( or his will) and every bad to his (or its) absence? ( There was one stupid statistics study in which catastrophies were proofs of God's absence and times of harmony and prosperity as proof of his existence which concluded with a 67% chance of his existance.)

But if Eru's will was present why would he create evil and mar his own creations. Does he wish to see his own creations destroyed just so he could have a good time in his "theatre". No, I think free will was present but Eru did give a nudge now and then to set things right again. Like he let Earendil cross the seas or gave Gollum a push down.

Is a vow made to Eru an act of free will. That was what started the events of the first age. So are all those free will? My answer is yes.

Another doubt. Are the creatures of the dark side under free will or under Morgoth's( or Sauron's) will. Aule, a valar couldn't give free will, so can Morgoth, or Sauron, the Maia? Or are they too under Eru's will?