Rocks, Hard Places, etc....

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

To answer that, I would like to emphasise the "free" part of free will: freedom implies a lack of constraints, or -- put another way -- an infinitude of possibility. One's will is unfettered by all considerations other than what the will desires.

As stated earlier, no actor with the exception of Eru is without some constraints - even Manwë or Melkor couldn't simply wish the other away. Only Eru has the "infinitude of possibility," and I would say that this too is assumed. Never having been a god, I'm not sure if there are not limits even for an infinite being (like not being able to unmake yourself). Maybe the phantom can attempt to explain such concepts as infinite beinghood to the rest of us...

This is clearly not the case in Middle-Earth. In the world of Eru, one does have choice, but it is extremely limited -- do what Eru/Providence commands or demands of you (the "good") or don't. And even then, choice is limited insofar as the Will or Eru or the Providential Plan will still work out to its conclusion.

You, as the observer, may see the choice of one of the actors as limited or even non-existant, but for the person, the perception of free will is more important than even having truly 100% free will. At no time during Sam's journey from the Shire and back did he try to make one choice yet end with the result of a completely different choice.

Assume the scene where Sam goes off to get water in Mordor. Assume that Sam decides that it's not worth the risk, as Gollum or orcs are lurking near, and so he does not get any water.

Bang! Suddenly his mouth is no longer dry, and his and Frodo's waterskins are filled with water. Surely Sam would think that the Lady (or Peter Jackson ) had something to do with this miracle, and would think that it was a good thing, but you and I would see that Sam's decision regarding the water meant nothing - it was just for show.

It's like when parents give a child a false choice where the parent really doesn't care what the child decides as the choice has already been made by the parent. Great way to screw your kids up as you teach them that no matter what they do, it means nothing. You end up with a passive "what does it matter what I think anyway" or and aggressive rebellious destructive child.

Eru is a better parent than that.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by alatar

Great way to screw your kids up as you teach them that no matter what they do, it means nothing. You end up with a passive "what does it matter what I think anyway" or and aggressive rebellious destructive child.

Or you end up with a low-key, idealistic, and remarkably confused one that's out to change the world, but isn't sure whether it would be more of a comfort to have fate on her side, or free will.

I guess what this debate boils down to is not what we think there is in Middle Earth, but what we want there to be. If it is more of a comfort to think that Eru has a master plan and that it will all work out for the greater good in then end, then you're going to vote that there is fate.

If you would prefer to believe in the unimaginable power of each individual that can be used to effect change, be it for good or evil, and without some divine foresight involved... then you're going to want free will.

Or, if you're like me, you're going to want both depending on momentary whims, and you're going to be confused as all heck because you can't, as cliched as it is, have your cake and eat it too.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I guess what this debate boils down to is not what we think there is in Middle Earth, but what we want there to be. If it is more of a comfort to think that Eru has a master plan and that it will all work out for the greater good in the end, then you're going to vote that there is fate.

If you would prefer to believe in the unimaginable power of each individual that can be used to effect change, be it for good or evil, and without some divine foresight involved... then you're going to want free will.

Or, if you're like me, you're going to want both depending on momentary whims, and you're going to be confused as all heck because you can't, as cliched as it is, have your cake and eat it too.

Isn't the reason that we have a God or gods is to feel like "it will all work out for the greater good in the end"? Someone or something is in control, has a plan, will make it all work, will keep the wolves at bay while we sleep at night? Even as adults are we all looking to and for that all-knowing, caring and loving parent that we had or always wished that we had? Is this what we call God?

What a scary thought to think/know that no one is in control, that there is no plan, that it might not work out and only our own vigilance will keep us safe! It's all up to us.

In another thread I posited that Manwë was the worst ruler in Arda. He always seemed too passive and reactive to me ("Oh, look what Melkor has done. maybe we should do something about that..."). Is this because, as one of the original singers of the Music and 'first-born' of Eru, he relied on this music/fate a little too much?

"It'll all work out, and if not, Papa Eru's up there and he'll set thing to rights," said Manwë as he continued to sit on his throne.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

What a scary thought to think/know that no one is in control, that there is no plan, that it might not work out and only our own vigilance will keep us safe! It's all up to us.

Honestly, that was always reassuring to me. Thinking that my own actions determine my fate means that my actions have consequence. What I do truly matters, and quite honestly, that keeps me really good. Bad karma is not something I want to deal with, so I behave (most of the time) in hopes that if I lead a good life, it will in some way help the world.

Versus thinking that I'm leading a good life because a deity I'm not sure about wants me to for reasons beknownst to Him/Her alone.

And that is no doubt why I chose no. With an All-Powerful Eru calling the shots and having this fantastic ending that only he knows about, but that everyone has a part in creating, it means that your life is not yours, it's His. If you're leading a life that's entirely someone else's, even Eru's, than your decisions are his, not yours.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Honestly, that was always reassuring to me. Thinking that my own actions determine my fate means that my actions have consequence. What I do truly matters, and quite honestly, that keeps me really good. Bad karma is not something I want to deal with, so I behave (most of the time) in hopes that if I lead a good life, it will in some way help the world.

So what you are saying in that, as far as you can perceive, you have free will. Some entity may be up there calling all of the shots, and your whole reality may be a Peter Jackson soundstage (or maybe not; everything would be "bigger" ), but you think that you are a free agent, and so I guess that's all that matters.

How would one distinguish the difference between a world where there is free will and one created by a infinite being with the appearance of free will? Luckily I have better things to think about...

And in regards to "being good," I just see it as the easier way (lowest energy state) to do things - lying, cheating, stealing, being duplicitous, etc just takes too much energy, and with three little ones in my life, I'm tired when I get out of bed in the morning.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by alatar

So what you are saying in that, as far as you can perceive, you have free will. Some entity may be up there calling all of the shots, and your whole reality may be a Peter Jackson soundstage (or maybe not; everything would be "bigger" ), but you think that you are a free agent, and so I guess that's all that matters.

What I'm saying, is that I'd like very much to believe in both, but today, when I have nothing better to do but think about it, I'm not sure which I prefer. I've noted that when somebody I care about dies, I turn to Eru in hopes that "he has a plan". Because when I feel helpless, it's comforting to think I'm not alone. When I succeed in something I've worked my butt off for, I'm arrogant enough to think that my success is based singularly on my own effort.

Take from that what you will. When I'm helpless, I convince myself that my involvement isn't really needed. Is it free will to choose to believe in fate?

[mormegil]

Isn't it possible for a master plan to exist and still have free will? Could not our free will or agency be a key component of that plan? One is not fated but has a choice which is part of the plan is to have a choice to do good or evil.