Old Tom bombadil is a...?!?!

I was looking at some of the other forums regarding the LOTR and discovered one post that is particularly interesting:-

Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.

DISCUSS

Arguments:

1. We never hear of Tom at all during the whole of the First Age. The Nine Rings aren't forged until the Second Age. QED.

2. You never see the two of them together.

3. In the first part of Fellowship of the Ring, the Nazgul are sent to the Shire to look for the wandering Baggins. Interestingly, Tom says to Frodo at the dinner-table: "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder" (Fellowship p.137 hardback, emphasis mine: note the fear Tom has of his master, Sauron!).

4. In Tom's questioning of the Hobbits, JRRT notes that "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders." (Fellowship p. 144) I think he was concerned that his double-life might have been noticed. Interestingly, Tom immediately changes the subject of conversation!
Furthermore, the One Ring had no effect on Tom - which seems consistent with Tolkien's observations about how the Nazgul would have handled the same priceless object (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #246): "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring."

5. It's also interesting to note that Tom could see Frodo clearly while Frodo was wearing the Ring (Fellowship p. 144 hardback) - just as the Witch-king could see Frodo clearly while he was wearing the Ring at Weathertop! (Fellowship p. 208 hardback)

6. Perhaps most damning, however, is the incident with the Barrow-wights (Fellowship pp. 151-155), where Tom - with nothing more than a few simple words (p. 154) - commands the Barrow-wight to leave. And it does, without argument. Why would the Wight be so completely under Tom's control? Because in his alternate guise as the Witch-king of Angmar, Tom ordered the Wight to inhabit the barrow in the first place! Turning to Return of the King, Appendix A, p. 321, "evil spirits out of Angmar... entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." Obviously the Witch-king was reponsible for sending the wights there; just as obviously, the Witch-king (disguised as Tom) would be capable of ordering them to leave!
(This is related to another passage, which has since been brought to my attention. On Fellowship page 158 hardback, Tom is guiding the Hobbits back towards the Road when he gazes towards the borders of Cardolan. "Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long time ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much." Since Tom, as the Witch-king, was the one who destroyed the kingdom of Cardolan, it's little wonder that he wouldn't say much about his involvement. Perhaps his remembering "something sad" reveals some remorse at being the instrument of Cardolan's destruction...?)

...Yep: I think we have an airtight case here.

...It's worth noting that, after the Witch-king was dead, Gandalf said he was "going to have a long talk with Bombadil" (Return of the King, p. 275). Curiously, he never tells anyone about the meeting later... and he's right there at the Grey Havens at the end of the book, undelayed it seems by long conversation. I think we can therefore theorize that Gandalf made it to the Old Forest, but that Tom (once the so-called "Witch-king" had died) was nowhere to be found!

...Of course, all this brings up the curiosity of motive. What would make the Witch-King of Angmar sport such a double identity? I suppose that the Witch-king, once of proud Numenorean ancestry, felt trapped by the guise of evil which Sauron had tricked him into, and in the fullness of time forged this alternate identity for himself so that he could occasionally feel happy, helpful, noble, and more at one with himself and his lineage. The situation is perhaps analagous to a crossdresser who, feeling trapped in a man's body, would occasionally assume the identity of a woman. It therefore makes sense that the Witch-king's other identity would be so peculiarly enigmatic, and perhaps sheds light on JRRT's observation in Letters #144: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

...Who else would be aware of Tom's double-life, I wonder? Since Tom repeatedly claims to have been around "before the river and the trees", and indeed even claims to be older than the Ents (Fellowship p. 142), surely the eldest of the Elves would know he was lying. Elrond plays along with Tom in public, being kind enough not to reveal his secret, but also seems to know that Tom and the Witch-king are one and the same; hence his refusal to give the Ring to Tom for safekeeping (Fellowship p. 278-9): "Power to defy the Enemy is not in him."

[Essex]

Of course he had the Ring in his possesion, but then gave it back to Frodo!

Doh!!!!!!!



(although I am, in this reply, disregarding your penultimate paragraph)

but sorry, I remember reading a similar thread before on another forum a few years back, it doesn't ring true to me, although it's funny someone else has thought of it............

I am intrigued as to whether old Bombadil could work as two persons, whilst of course not revealing this secret. Obviously there are some others who will shed more light on the true nature of Bombadil to counter this possibility.

[alatar]

Mansun, as seemingly as airtight as your argument appears, I would have to respectfully disagree. I have information that I was not to divulge, but in order to clear the Witch-King's good name, I am forced to come clean.

Tom Bombadil is none other than Starship Captain James Tiberius Kirk.

That should be obvious to everyone, but for those that require additional proof:

• You never see Bombadil and Kirk together, even at various science fiction/fantasy conventions.

• "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder"- Kirk's tricorder probably picked up the approaching Hobbits as 'life forms,' and Kirk was disappointed that he could not blast them with his phaser. And Kirk would pick lilies from a stream if it would get him closer to a woman.

• "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders." Kirk was notorious for getting into fights, and these so-called Riders might fight the bill. Plus, Kirk liked horses, and sometimes horses and/or bad guys on horses meant 'damsel in distress,' a pheromone that Kirk could not resist.

• Kirk was not affected by the Ring as his ego is of galactic proportions; some critics have suggested that the Captain has "delusions of godhood." Battling supernatural and godlike beings in a contest of wills (not wits, mind you) was a daily experience for Kirk. To think that the Ring could do anything to him...ha. And Kirk was such an egomaniac prima donna that nothing, absolutely nothing could make him leave center stage, let alone make him become invisible.

• And Kirk's power over the Barrow wights is easily explained. Anyone familiar with the Captain knows that he is prone to monologuing - making grandiose speechs that left his enemies in tears and his fellow crewpersons ready to sacrifice themselves just so that they wouldn't have to hear anymore. The death scream of the wight is proof of Kirk's speaking abilities. And note that he lifted a necklace from the pile on the hill to, yet again, get in good with Goldberry.

• And the yellow boots are a dead giveaway - the Captain's uniform is gold/yellow.

And just who do you think that the Blue Wizards, Pallando and I , were sent to retrieve?

This is Spock...I mean uhh...alatar... out.

[Meneltarmacil]

As these are not very serious suggestions, Middle-Earth Mirth is probably the best place to be discussing them, and they'd probably belong on this thread.

Though I did like the Star Trek idea...

Originally Posted by alatar

Mansun, as seemingly as airtight as your argument appears, I would have to respectfully disagree.

Alatar, these Bombadil/WK comparisons were made by somebody else (not me!) from another Forum, yet they are still interesting if what somewhat bizarre. Nobody can dent that Bombadil is the strangest of all the ME characters, so much that one might question whether Tolkein was right to include him in the LOTR at all, since he plays little or no part in the vast majority of the story, unless that he DOES play another person at the same time.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've read the original article presenting this thesis; if I remember correctly, it was on the Tolkien Sarcasm Site. (i. e. flyingmoose) Since it is definitely not a serious book discussion, I'm moving this thread to the Middle-Earth Mirth forum. A relatively new Tom Bombadil thread is already located there, so I will see if I can merge the two. (Old Tom Bombadil is a...?)

Kudos to alatar for a wonderful new crackpot theory - what a laugh!! I really enjoyed reading that!

[alatar]

Apologies all around, especially to Mansun, if I've skewed the discussion or intent of the thread.

Sorry, but I just couldn't restrain myself...

Originally Posted by alatar

The yellow boots are a dead giveaway - the Captain's uniform is gold/yellow.

I suppose you meant these yellow wellies here! Old Bombadil must have made them himself lol.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

I have information that I was not to divulge, but in order to clear the Witch-King's good name, I am forced to come clean.

Tom Bombadil is none other than Starship Captain James Tiberius Kirk.

That should be obvious to everyone, but for those that require additional proof:

. . . .

This is Spock...I mean uhh...alatar... out.

I think the clincher lies in obvious subterfuge between Goldberry and the many roles Mrs. "Roddenberry" played. *coughs*

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think the clincher lies in obvious subterfuge between Goldberry and the many roles Mrs. "Roddenberry" played. *coughs*

To run with this idea just a bit further, if Goldberry/Mrs. Roddenberry (as astutely noted by Bêthberry) were able to control Captain Kirk to the point of having him dress and act like Tom, this would account for Kirk's/Tom's seeming immunity to the power of the Ring - he was under a much greater and more powerful influence, dwarfing the power of Sauron's paltry Ring.

Sauron desired only Middle Earth and maybe even Arda, but such things pale in comparison to exclusive franchise rights...

"Yes dear, you can be in any episode and can be any character that you want..." said Gene gingerly.

[Gurthang]

I've got it! The final answer.

Bombadil is Beren!

Let's look at the facts.

1. Beren and Luthien dissappeared after the destruction of Beleriand. | Nobody knows where Tom or Goldberry came from.

2. Tom is immune to the Ring's power. | Beren died, and then came back to life... making him immortal and unaffected by the Ring.

3. Goldberry is the River-woman's daughter. | Melian, Luthien's mother, was a lover of trees who lived in caves alongside the River Esgalduin.

4. Tom commands trees. | Melian passed her knowledge of tree-lore on to Luthien, who passed it to Beren/Tom.

5. Tom sings about meeting Goldberry by a pond while she was singing. | All of us know that Beren happened upon Luthien and was enchanted by her song.

6. Tom could see Frodo when he put the Ring on. | This goes along with Beren dying. Since he died, he was part of the spirit world. When he was brought back, he was actually in both worlds. When Frodo slipped on the Ring and entered the spirit realm, Tom was there and could see him.

I should note that Beren being one handed could mar my theory. But I must ask you... does it ever say that Tom has two hands?

Tom is Beren and Beren is Tom. The End.


P.S. Hmmm. This could make a serious topic one day. *chuckles maniacly*

Tom Bombadil should not have been included in the LOTR. He contributes absolutely nothing to the story, yet there is something strange about him, as Elrond pointed out. He isn't just a normal human, but a strange creature of which even the Ring has no power over. On that front, he may be more powerful than the WK himself!

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

I've got it! The final answer.

Bombadil is Beren!

1. Beren and Luthien dissappeared after the destruction of Beleriand. | Nobody knows where Tom or Goldberry came from.

2. Tom is immune to the Ring's power. | Beren died, and then came back to life... making him immortal and unaffected by the Ring.

3. Goldberry is the River-woman's daughter. | Melian, Luthien's mother, was a lover of trees who lived in caves alongside the River Esgalduin.

4. Tom commands trees. | Melian passed her knowledge of tree-lore on to Luthien, who passed it to Beren/Tom.

5. Tom sings about meeting Goldberry by a pond while she was singing. | All of us know that Beren happened upon Luthien and was enchanted by her song.

6. Tom could see Frodo when he put the Ring on. | This goes along with Beren dying. Since he died, he was part of the spirit world. When he was brought back, he was actually in both worlds. When Frodo slipped on the Ring and entered the spirit realm, Tom was there and could see him.

I love your idea.... but Beren and Luthien never came back, didn't they, cos it's part of her deal with Mandos? Somewhere in the Sil it says that alone of the Eldar Luthien never came back and passed away.... and isn't that supposed to mean that she'd never be able to do so even with another form?

Goldberry is Goldberry because of gold hair, isn't it? Luthien was dark-haired....

So it was that alone of the Eldalie she has died indeed, and left the world long ago.

Hehe... just found my Sil...

[Durelin]

*imagines The Witch King donning yellow boots*

It all makes sense now...

I've always felt like there's a bigger separation between good and evil in Middle-earth.

I think we can gain one lesson about Tom Bombadil from this: he had all the powers of the Witch King without the inconvenience of servitude to an evil master, being 'undead', and a ring.