LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 04 - The Siege of Gondor

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This I think is the clearest statement of what Gandalf really cared about that one will find anywhere. He says that Gondor may fall (and at that moment there was no certainty that Aragorn would win through and survive the war to become king). The success of his mission did not depend on Aragorn's triumph.

I'm not saying the success of his mission depended on it, I'm saying it had become a part of it. It wasn't just a matter of just defeating Sauron, & then walking away from the possible chaos that might result, it was about leaving Middle-earth in some kind of order for its new beginning. Having Aragorn become king, re-establishing the Royal line, etc, were all part of that.

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

But wasn't it Denethor who didn't treat Faramir rightly from the start? He had always made it obvious that he preferred Boromir over Faramir, and Faramir accepted that. Now that Boromir's gone, Denethor would still not let go of him. Faramir was willing to do everything Boromir had left behind, yet Denethor still did not recognize that - when he said, "That would depend upon the manner of your return." I think Denethor only realized what he had all along (i.e., Faramir) when he was about to lose it.

Denethor was a man- that was his tragedy, if you like. He screwed up, behaved badly & was over proud, but at heart he was a flawed human being like all of us. Its too easy to judge. There but for the grace of God....

[Lalwendë]

Looking objectively at Denethor and forgetting for a moment how much we all love Faramir, his behaviour shows him to have been a great leader who has slowly been worn down by the threat of war. He may also have felt undermined by Gandalf’s influence on hiss second son. When Boromir is gone, Denethor expects Faramir to take his place, and when he is not immediately eager to do so his anger is roused. He points out that despite his fine qualities, Faramir must also demonstrate his martial qualities:

Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death.

'Do you wish then,' said Faramir, 'that our places had been exchanged?'

'Yes, I wish that indeed,' said Denethor. 'For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.'

It is quite possible that this exchange has another meaning. They have been discussing Faramir's rejection of the Ring, an item which denethor in his heart believes he could have kept safe and kept to save his people, however misguided he has been by using the Palantir. And we must admit, it might seem nuts to send this Ring in the hands of a small seemingly defenceless Hobbit. He has sent Boromir to get the ring, but it is Faramir who has been presented with the best opportunity to take it. From these lines, particularly viewed in context of the second part, it could mean that Denethor believes Boromir would have taken the Ring. I like the possible double meaning as it brings depth to the relationship and how father and son misunderstand one another, and possibly always have misunderstood one another.

'If I had this thing now in the deep vaults of this citadel, we should not then shake with dread under this gloom, fearing the worst, and our counsels would be undisturbed.

Denethor is convinced that he could protect the Ring, but he is sorely misguided. Sooner or later Sauron would have waged war on Gondor, which seems, in military terms, to be woefully inadequate in terms of attack, focussing all its resources on defence. The resources available to Gondor are starkly clear:

he can afford to lose a host better than we to lose a company. And the retreat of those that we put out far afield will be perilous, if he wins across in force.'

This strategy can only hold out for so long against an aggressor. When that war came, the Ring would have been taken. In addition, he seems only to think of Gondor. Had the Ring been taken then it would not have just been Gondor that suffered, yet Denethor thinks of having the Ring only in terms of defence of his own country.

He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.'

Denethor’s notion of leadership is interesting. Sauron has ‘slaves’ to fight his wars, and Denethor has ‘soldiers’. The difference only lies in that soldiers may have had a choice in the matter. They still cannot break an oath or run from their posts; maybe the punishment would be less in Gondor, but it would still be a grave error for any man to do so. This of course is how modern wars are fought; it has been a long time since a British monarch was active in battle though we have had princes involved. Yet to spell out his notion of leadership betrays an arrogance, an air of superiority. Other leaders in Middle earth join the battle, but Denethor does not; he underlines how refined he is, how strategic and ‘advanced’.

I wonder what sort of technology Sauron has access to. The armies laying siege to Gondor use a number of interesting techniques, including hurling the heads of the Gondorian men over the walls. This would have not only a profound psychological effect but could possibly also spread disease, weakening the people. They have ‘planes’ in the form of the Fell beasts, and they have engines of war with the Mumakil.

Busy as ants hurrying orcs were digging, digging lines of deep trenches in a huge ring, just out of bowshot from the walls; and as the trenches were made each was filled with fire, though how it was kindled or fed, by art or devilry, none could see.

It was no brigand or orc-chieftain that ordered the assault upon the Lord of Mordor's greatest foe. A power and mind of malice guided it. As soon as the great catapults were set, with many yells and the creaking of rope and winch, they began to throw missiles marvellously high, so that they passed right above the battlement and fell thudding within the first circle of the City; and many of them by some secret art burst into flame as they came toppling down.

The trench building is ingenious, and no doubt learned through other sieges (of Eastern cities we do not know of?); this would hide Sauron's forces from the eyes of the Gondorians making it not only impossible to hit them but to see what they were up to. I wonder about how that fire was kindled. Could it have been with oil? And what about the secret art that caused the missiles to burst into flame as they landed? Could they have been incendiary devices, filled with unstable compounds?

But the chief weapon of the enemy is fear, a very potent topic these past few weeks in the real world.

the Black Captain leads them once again, and the fear of him has passed before him over the River.'

the darkness had reached its full and grew no deeper, it weighed heavier on men's hearts, and a great dread was on them. Ill news came soon again

But it is the Black Captain that defeats us. Few will stand and abide even the rumour of his coming. His own folk quail at him, and they would slay themselves at his bidding.'

He does not only scare the Gondorians, he scares his own people, who will willingly lay down their own lives if he wishes them to do so. In our own world such sacrifices are achieved through tyranny of the mind, and it appears that in Middle earth the same methods are used, though perhaps in a more mysterious way. Just mention of him is frightening enough, but when he arrives, he brings real and tangible terror to everyone save the one person who can understand the true nature of this ‘Black Captain’, Gandalf. And what an entrance he makes to the city! :

there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.

In rode the Lord of the Nazgul. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgul, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.
All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.

Finally, here we also have what I think is proof that the Witch King is possibly without any body or Hroa:

The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

Though the following line makes me wonder about Gandalf and the nature of his own mortality, or is it a slip of the pen, a commonly used image that Tolkien let slide by?

'Just now, Pippin, my heart almost failed me, hearing that name.

[Durelin]

I think he (and everyone else) would have been in deep doo-doo had the "get Frodo to Rivendell" thread been lost (although he personally did not have a whole lot to do with that).

Woops... Hehe, good point.

[Kuruharan]

I'm not saying the success of his mission depended on it, I'm saying it had become a part of it. It wasn't just a matter of just defeating Sauron, & then walking away from the possible chaos that might result, it was about leaving Middle-earth in some kind of order for its new beginning. Having Aragorn become king, re-establishing the Royal line, etc, were all part of that.

This may be deserving of its own topic, but...

I'm not sure that Middle-earth would have been left in chaos. Gondor would have been left under the rule of Faramir (and I can think of far worse people to be ruled by). Rohan might have ended up being ruled by Eowyn. That opens up the possibility of a Gondor/Rohan merger...

I guess the real difference is that there would have been no king over the wide empty spaces of Eriador.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This may be deserving of its own topic, but...

I'm not sure that Middle-earth would have been left in chaos. Gondor would have been left under the rule of Faramir (and I can think of far worse people to be ruled by). Rohan might have ended up being ruled by Eowyn. That opens up the possibility of a Gondor/Rohan merger...

I guess the real difference is that there would have been no king over the wide empty spaces of Eriador.

Ok, but there would have been no Aragorn-Arwen marriage, with the loss of that bloodline stretching back to Melian & beyond. I certainly can't imagine either of them marrying anyone else...

I think you have a point about another thread on this subject - was Aragorn's succeeding to the throne of Gondor necessary, & if so for what reasons? Faramir would not have assumed the Kingship of Gondor, so the realm would have remained ruled by a steward 'until the King come again'.

[Encaitare]

Maybe the people of Gondor would have adopted a new system. If Aragorn had died, leaving no heir, then there would have been no one else to rule. Faramir was a beloved leader in Minas Tirith, and perhaps knowing that there was no "rightful" king anymore, the people there would have decided to crown Faramir instead. Kind of like how in the youth of the US, people wanted Washington to be king.

Mere speculation, of course.

[Kuruharan]

Ok, but there would have been no Aragorn-Arwen marriage, with the loss of that bloodline stretching back to Melian & beyond.

Well, yes this is true. This is an almost "elvish" point in not wanting this last little bit of "magic" to pass from Middle-earth.

If the king had not returned it would not have made such a grand ending (in such case some "modernist" critics might have found it more appealing). However, Gandalf as a character could not concern himself with such things. On the other hand, he was rather "elvish" in disposition.

Maybe the people of Gondor would have adopted a new system. If Aragorn had died, leaving no heir, then there would have been no one else to rule. Faramir was a beloved leader in Minas Tirith, and perhaps knowing that there was no "rightful" king anymore, the people there would have decided to Faramir instead. Kind of like how in the youth of the US, people wanted Washington to be king.

I think Faramir would have had a reaction similar to that of Washington.