The Point of the Unions

[Kath]

However, Arwen could not leave Middle-earth whether there was a ship to bear her or not. She had chosen to be mortal when she plighted her troth with Aragorn in Cerin Amroth.

I know but this is still a point I don't entirely understand. Though Frodo and Sam were mortal they had special dispensation to go over the sea, same with Gimli, why not so for Arwen?

[Fallenstar]

I was wondering about the union between Arwen and Aragorn. The point of that marriage may well be what Tolkien said in the appendix: "the two lines of the Half-Elven finally joined together."(that's not a direct quote, just an idea, I am too lazy to check right now.)

maybe Tolkien just don't want to deal with the Half-Elven anymore...he had to give them excuses for every choice they make...

[daeron]

Arwen was the last of the Noldor in ME. All the Noldor left with Elrond. Maybe the Noldor had a special ban or something considering the curse of Mandos.
But I still think, Aragon couldn't leave and Arwen couldn't live without him.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kath

I know but this is still a point I don't entirely understand. Though Frodo and Sam were mortal they had special dispensation to go over the sea, same with Gimli, why not so for Arwen?

Arwen had to die because she CHOSE a mortal life. By chosing, deliberately, to remain behind with Aragorn, she was chosing a mortal life. When Aragorn died, she had nothing left that she wished to live for, and that mortality kicked in. Do you honestly think she would want to live out the Ages in Valinor- alone- when she could die and be with Aragorn again? Luthien obviously didn't...

Originally Posted by daeron

Arwen had to turn mortal becaue the last ships which can take her back were already leaving ME. The Valar were setting down the last dates for return. Arwen cannot stay till Aragorn's death and later take a ship. Remember the roads were bent forever.

Those roads had been bent for an Age already, since the Fall of Numenor. I highly doubt that THAT had anything do with it.

People on this thread seem to be forgetting that Arwen was not a full-blooded Elf. Like her brothers, the famed Half-Elven Elladan and Elrohir, she was part Man as well. And this is very important.

The reason being that it is said that the children of Elrond were offered a choice, just as he and Elros had been, to choose Man and Mortality, or Elvenkind and Eternity. Why on earth Tolkien decided to give them this choice, except for plot reasons, I don't know, but there it is: the children of Elrond could choose immortality by staying with him and returning to the Undying Lands, or they could choose mortality by remaining in Middle-earth without him.

Arwen, by reason of choosing to marry Aragorn, was choosing to remain in Middle-earth, and not return to the Undying Lands- at all. She was choosing mortality.

What Elladan and Elrohir did is not known. It is said that they lingered in Middle-earth for a time, until the death of their sister, but it is not said that they chose mortality, or that they chose to join Elrond in the West. Their fate is a story that fanfic writers dream of...

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

I think Legolas was the last known Elf to leave Middle-earth, and he had to make his own ship--by this time the Grey Havens were closed, and Círdan had already departed.

Originally Posted by daeron

Arwen was the last of the Noldor in ME. All the Noldor left with Elrond. Maybe the Noldor had a special ban or something considering the curse of Mandos.
But I still think, Aragon couldn't leave and Arwen couldn't live without him.

Tsk, tsk, you two... Can't you read?

In the "Grey Havens" it says:

Then Elrond and Galadriel rode on; for the Third Age was over, and the Days of the Rings were passed, and an end was come of the story and song of those times. With them went many Elves of the High Kindred who would no longer stay in Middle-Earth; and among them, filled with a sadness that was yet blessed and without bitterness, rode Sam, and Frodo, and Bilbo, and the Elves delighted to honour them.

-emphasis mine

My points here are... where does it say that ALL the Noldor left with Elrond? There is no mention of Glorfindel in this chapter, nor of Erestor. And, if Arwen (who is as Sindar as she is Noldor) is to be accounted a Noldo, then Elladan and Elrohir must be remembered, and they remained in Middle-earth for a time.

Furthermore, as the above quote indicates, only MANY of the High Folk (the Noldor) left. Many does not equal all. Furthermore, the Epilogue has Sam telling Elanor that there are still many Elves in Middle-Earth, and there will be for many long years to come. In time, perhaps she would see some, maybe even a few of the lingering HIGH ELVES (paraphrasing, since I don't have the book handy).

Next, my dear Nilpaurion, where does it say that Cirdan departed? I have just read the end of the "Grey Havens" (looking for the above quote) and nowhere does it actually say that Cirdan left. On the other hand, there is a very clear statement (in the Silm, I believe) that Cirdan would not leave until the last ship set sail. Elrond's was not the last ship, and neither was Legolas'. Personally, I would say that the last ship STILL has not sailed, 5000-7000 years later... Cirdan could still be out there in some Cornish or Welsh fishing village, for all we know.

As the Grey Havens- they may or may not have been closed. I doubt it, that early on in the Fourth Age. At this point in time Rivendell was still well-populated with those left behind with Elladan and Elrohir, and recently joined by Celeborn and many of the Galadhrim. And Mirkwood was at the height of its power, and Legolas' realm would not be dead yet. Yes... I highly doubt if Cirdan had abandoned the Havens as early as when Arwen left Gondor.

[Kath]

Arwen had to die because she CHOSE a mortal life. By chosing, deliberately, to remain behind with Aragorn, she was chosing a mortal life. When Aragorn died, she had nothing left that she wished to live for, and that mortality kicked in. Do you honestly think she would want to live out the Ages in Valinor- alone- when she could die and be with Aragorn again? Luthien obviously didn't...

Thank you for that Formendacil, it's something I've wondered about ever since I first read the book and you have explained it nicely.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

In case anyone's interested, here are excerpts from Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, regarding the relationship between Andreth and Aegnor. 'tis a sad tale, but I'll let you read it for yourself:

'For the doom of Men that has touched thee as a woman,' said Finrod. 'Dost thou think that I do not know? Is he not my brother dearly loved? Aegnor: Aikanar, the Sharp-flame, swift and eager. And not long are the years since you first met, and your hands touched in this darkness. Yet then thou wert a maiden, brave and eager, in the morning upon the high hills of Dorthonion.'

'Say on!' said Andreth. 'Say: who art now but a wise-woman, alone, and age that shall not touch him has already set winter's grey in thy hair! But say not thou to me, for so he once did!'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'That is the bitterness, beloved adaneth, woman of Men, is it not? that has run through all your words. If I could speak any comfort, you would deem it lordly from one on my side of the sundering doom. But what can I say, save to remind you of the Hope that you yourself have revealed?'

'I did not say that it was ever my hope,' answered Andreth. 'And even were it so, I would still cry: why should this hurt come here and now? Why should we love you, and why should ye love us (if ye do), and yet set the gulf between?'

'Because we were so made, close kin,' said Finrod. 'But we did not make ourselves, and therefore we, the Eldar, did not set the gulf. Nay, adaneth, we are not lordly in this, but pitiful. That word will displease thee. Yet pity is of two kinds: one is of kinship recognized, and is near to love; the other is of difference of fortune perceived, and is near to pride. I speak of the former.'

'Speak of neither to me!' said Andreth. 'I desire neither. I was young and I looked on his flame, and now I am old and lost. He was young and his flame leaped towards me, but he turned away, and he is young still. Do candles pity moths?'

'Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?' said Finrod. 'Adaneth, I tell thee, Aikanar the Sharp-flame loved thee. For thy sake now he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindred, but live alone to the end, remembering the morning in the hills of Dorthonion. But too soon in the North-wind his flame will go out! Foresight is given to the Eldar in many things not far off, though seldom of joy, and I say to thee thou shalt live long in the order of your kind, and he will go forth before thee and he will not wish to return.'

Then Andreth stood up and stretched her hands to the fire. 'Then why did he turn away? Why leave me while I had still a few good years to spend?'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'I fear the truth will not satisfy thee. The Eldar have one kind, and ye another; and each judges the others by themselves - until they learn, as do few. This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death - or for flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then what will become of this land? If his heart ruled, he would have wished to take thee and flee far away, east or south, forsaking his kin, and thine. Love and loyalty hold him to his. What of thee to thine? Thou hast said thyself that there is no escape by flight within the bounds of the world.'

'For one year, one day, of the flame I would have given all: kin, youth, and hope itself: adaneth I am,' said Andreth.

'That he knew,' said Finrod; 'and he withdrew and did not grasp what lay to his hand: elda he is. For such barters are paid for in anguish that cannot be guessed, until it comes, and in ignorance rather than in courage the Eldar judge that they are made.

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death should soon end it.'

'But the end is always cruel - for Men,' said Andreth. 'I would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent. I would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet, when I could no longer run beside him!’

'Maybe not,' said Finrod. 'So you feel now. But do you think of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have stayed at thy side to uphold thee. Then pity thou wouldst have had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so shamed.

'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end. Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that last evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw thy face mirrored with a star caught in thy hair - ever, until the North-wind brings the night of his flame. Yea, and after that, sitting in the House of Mandos in the Halls of Awaiting until the end of Arda.'

'And what shall I remember?' said she. 'And when I go to what halls shall I come? To a darkness in which even the memory of the sharp flame shall be quenched? Even the memory of rejection. That at least.'

Finrod sighed and stood up. 'The Eldar have no healing words for such thoughts, adaneth,' he said. 'But would you wish that Elves and Men had never met? Is the light of the flame, which otherwise you would never have seen, of no worth even now? You believe yourself scorned? Put away at least that thought, which comes out of the Darkness, and then our speech together will not have been wholly in vain. Farewell!'

(Many thanks to H-I for the copy. )