Greasy, Grimy, Grima Hair...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by SpM

Since "wizened" means "shrivelled", the description that Tolkien gives does rather suggest someone of shorter stature than your average man of Rohan. Did anyone actually imagine Grima as anything other than diminutive and hunched when they first read LotR? I certainly didn't. I saw him much as the films portray him.

It's strange how words can have an effect on you, as I always associated 'wizened' with 'old', so that is always how I have pictured Grima. I can see the image of two very old men sitting together in Meduseld very clearly. But of course 'wizened' does not have to mean old, it could also mean he is very thin, or even that he has some kind of disability brought on through a wasting illness.

[Bêthberry]

Funny and clever thread title, Nimrodel_9! I see Eomer's habit of ghosting old songs is becoming influential. But then, we wouldn't be the dead if we didn't ghost things, eh?

I must say that I was so impressed with Brad Dourif's portrayal of Grima that hair colour never crossed my mind. But to be honest, I tend to become a tad uncomfortable with all Tolkien's descriptions of a people's hair colour and eye colour, as if there were a kind of, well, I don't wish to imply anything here, but 'racial purity' is the term that comes to mind.

There are, for example, Germans who don't fit the North American stereotype that all Aryans are blonde-haired and blue eyed. There are Germans with dark hair. There are also Irish with black hair and dark eyes. I've been told they are called the 'black Irish' because they descend from the Spanish sailors who survived the defeat of the Spanish Armada by making for the coast of Ireland.

My point is that all of Europe, no less than the British Isles, reflects the intermingling of various of the very old and ancient tribes which first settled parts of the continent. And actually the Appendices of LotR suggests this very state in the story of Helm Hammerhand, a king of The Mark before Theodon, who came to blows with Freca, a man who demanded the hand of the King's daughter for his son, although it does so with a wiff of insinuation about rival tribal claims.

There was at this time a man named Freca, who claimed descent from King Freawine, though he had, men said, much Dunlendish blood, and was dark-haired.

Helm even calls Freca "Dunlending" before he dispatches him with a blow that kills his rival and then he decrees Freca's son and kin the King's enemies.

So, clearly, there was some mixing of Rohirrim and Dunlending blood and it is not inconceivable that Grima could be given some Dunlending ancestry as explanation for both his outsider status and his dark deeds.

[Boromir88]

There was another thread (which I can't find at the moment) which sort of goes along with this and had me like Grima's appearance as shown in the movies.

One, he looks just like your typical squirmy/wimp bad guy; small, black robes, black hair, and pale skinned, (he had yellow teeth too right)? So he just represents the typical bad guy.

The other is I think it goes in to explain why Grima began to dislike Eomer, his people of Rohan, and ended up turning to Saruman. He is out of place in Rohan. The typical description of Rohan has been said, Eomer, Theodred, Theoden, and the other great marshals/people look like this. Grima is left out. Also, these are soldiers, Grima is a councillor. So making him different from the rest of the Rohan people one makes him look like a bad guy, two explains why he would dislike people like Theoden and Eomer.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

But to be honest, I tend to become a tad uncomfortable with all Tolkien's descriptions of a people's hair colour and eye colour, as if there were a kind of, well, I don't wish to imply anything here, but 'racial purity' is the term that comes to mind.

As an aside, what is Tolkien's obsession with Hair about? On Ardalambion's (downloadable) Quenya wordlist I find the following:

finda "having hair, -haired" (the gloss "-haired" evidently means that finda may be used in compounds, like *carnifinda "red-haired") (PM:340)
Findaráto *"Hair-champion", Sindarized as Finrod (SA:ar(a) )
findë (1) "hair" (especially of the head) (PM:340), "a tress or plait of hair" (PM:345), "tress, braid of hair, lock of hair" (SPIN)
findë (2) "cunning" (prob. noun) (LT1:253; this "Qenya" word is evidently obsoleted by # 1 above)
Findecáno ("-káno") *"Hair-commander"; Sindarized as Fingon (PM:344)
findessë "a head of hair, a person's hair as a whole" (PM:345)
findl "lock of hair, tress" (but findil elsewhere - in LotR-style Quenya, no word can end in -dl). (LT2:341)
finë (stem *fini-, given the primitive form phini) "a hair" (PM:340) or "larch" (SPIN)
finië "cunning" (prob. noun) (LT1:253)
finwa "sagacious" (LT1:253)
Finwë masc. name, apparently displaying the frequent ending -wë suffixed to a stem normally having to do with hair, but the name is obscure (see Tolkien's discussion in PM:340-341). Also in Etym (PHIN, WEG). According to VT46:9, Finwë was also the name of tengwa #10 in the pre-classical Tengwar system presupposed in the Etymologies, but Tolkien would later call #10 formen instead.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

As an aside, what is Tolkien's obsession with Hair about? On Ardalambion's (downloadable) Quenya wordlist I find the following:

I knew there was a reason why hairstyle was such an important part of the first REB. But I am disappointed in Rimbaud. He should have named Gravy 'Findecáno'.

Does Grima ever ask Eowyn for a lock of her hair? Or attempt to run his fingers through her hair?

[davem]

This is the Ardalambion Quenya wordlist for anyone who wants it (first link).

[solarisa]

he needs to be icky, for a bad guy...also, he's very noticable lol so ppl wouldn't get confused "which person is grima again"?