Saruman for or against Sauron?

[Kuruharan]

But if Saruman was originally higher in the Order than Gandalf then surely he should have had an equal if not higher chance of being able to master the Ring?

Prestige does not necessarily reflect potency.

From the ever useful Letter #246...

Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn...Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him-being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.

We have to assume that Saruman fell into the category of "Of the others" even though he too was an emissary of the Powers.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Gandalf would seem to imply otherwise in Book Three: "But Isengard cannot fight Mordor, unless Saruman first obtains the Ring."

Obviously, it's a matter of opinion as to how far that statement can be taken. It may merely mean that Saruman would never feel secure enough to challenge Sauron's might unless he first had the Ring.

EDIT: That "only Gandalf might be expected to master him" quote has been used a lot on the Downs to "prove" that only Gandalf could have mastered the Ring and thus Sauron. I will not do full battle with that argument, but will merely point out that Tolkien uses the curious phrase "might be expected," which implies that this is not a for-sure thing. I will also add that Saruman also fulfills the qualities of Gandalf that are mentioned in this passage: an emissary of the Powers, of the same kind as Sauron; and, as has already been mentioned in this thread, he was before Gandalf's fall and resurrection more powerful (or at least perceived to be more powerful) than the Grey Wizard.

[Kuruharan]

That "only Gandalf might be expected to master him" quote has been used a lot on the Downs to "prove" that only Gandalf could have mastered the Ring and thus Sauron. I will not do full battle with that argument, but will merely point out that Tolkien uses the curious phrase "might be expected," which implies that this is not a for-sure thing. I will also add that Saruman also fulfills the qualities of Gandalf that are mentioned in this passage: an emissary of the Powers, of the same kind as Sauron; and, as has already been mentioned in this thread, he was before Gandalf's fall and resurrection more powerful (or at least perceived to be more powerful) than the Grey Wizard.

So which is it? You are arguing both points.

The "might be expected" part implies that it was not a sure thing that even Gandalf would be able to defeat Sauron even if he mastered the Ring.

Let me do some added emphasis...

only Gandalf might be expected to master him.

This is a statement of the unique stature of Gandalf. I don't see how it could be taken any other way.

Please, feel free to explain why Saruman could have mastered the Ring and proved a match for Sauron. However, bear in mind that you have already mentioned part of the answer to this riddle...

(or at least perceived to be more powerful)

...and that Tolkien said elsewhere...

[Saruman], having lost any devotion to other persons or causes was open to the domination of a superior will, to its threats, and to its display of power. - The Palantiri footnote 14

For a variety of reasons, Saruman was not on Sauron's level and could not be expected to successfully contend with him.

Oh, by the way, there is also another thing relevant to this topic in this little piece...

Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it.
-The Palantiri

I think this sheds some light on the original question.

It might be that all things that become under Sauron's command eventually become under his control through his power, as with the fate of the Nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron, for instance. They are very much Sauron's puppets, doing exactly as he bids, and Saruman may have sensed that this was to be his doom unless he strove for the power of the Ring itself, his ''way-out" from Sauron's clutches.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

So which is it? You are arguing both points.

The "might be expected" part implies that it was not a sure thing that even Gandalf would be able to defeat Sauron even if he mastered the Ring.

Let me do some added emphasis...



This is a statement of the unique stature of Gandalf. I don't see how it could be taken any other way.

Please, feel free to explain why Saruman could have mastered the Ring and proved a match for Sauron. However, bear in mind that you have already mentioned part of the answer to this riddle...



...and that Tolkien said elsewhere...



For a variety of reasons, Saruman was not on Sauron's level and could not be expected to successfully contend with him.

Oh, by the way, there is also another thing relevant to this topic in this little piece...



I think this sheds some light on the original question.

Would Saruman then, after finding out that if he could not master the Ring, hand it back to Sauron if he ever got hold of it? Or if he could master the ring, & I believe that he did have the strength of power & will to do it, would he have enough time to counter Mordor's wave of attacks with just 10,000 uruk-hai?

[Kuruharan]

Would Saruman then, after finding out that if he could not master the Ring, hand it back to Sauron

He might have tried, but he would have been turned into Aruman Butter immediately afterwards for his presumption.

Or if he could master the ring...would he have enough time to counter Mordor's wave of attacks with just 10,000 uruk-hai?

Depends...

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

He might have tried, but he would have been turned into Aruman Butter immediately afterwards for his presumption.



Depends...

I think Saruman deserves a lot of credit for amassing 10,000 formiddable warriors which, man-to-man not even Mordor could match. Perhaps he could have held out against Mordor long enough to wield the ring.

[Kuruharan]

I think Saruman deserves a lot of credit for amassing 10,000 formiddable warriors which, man-to-man not even Mordor could match.

What's your basis for saying that?

The Rohirrim chopped them up pretty good, and they were outnumbered.

Perhaps he could have held out against Mordor long enough to wield the ring.

One has to ask oneself what exactly would happen if this impossible event did take place. It might not have done Saruman any good.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

He might have tried, but he would have been turned into Aruman Butter immediately afterwards for his presumption.

That's a bold statement to make, Master Dwarf!

Short of Sauron himself, who would force Saruman to hand over the Ring? It looks pretty clear in the Lord of the Rings and Unfinished Tales that though Saruman was in Sauron's cahoots, if the Ring had slipped into his fingers he would have been "Saruman for Saruman". And, quite frankly, within the safety of Orthanc, we know (from UT) that he needn't fear from Sauron.

The question is how long it would have taken Saruman to master the Ring. Did he have the military resources to hold off Mordor (and possibly the remnants of Rohan and Gondor)? We are told that his efforts in Orthanc were paltry imitations compared to Sauron's war machine. We must, however, acknowledge that he had an army comparable to that of the "good" nations- which fended off Sauron for quite a few years. Furthermore, if Sauron had to fight his way past Gondor and Rohan- that would have bought Saruman more time.

And, of all the people in Middle-Earth, Saruman would probably have made the quickest study in mastering the Ring. Ringlore was, after all, his specialty. His downfall, too, but that's another matter. I personally don't think it would have been long (in a count of years) before he would have been strong enough to crush Sauron with the Ring. The question is whether he would have had that time.

[Boromir88]

That's a bold statement to make, Master Dwarf!

Not really, considering the quote provided from Letter 246 where 'only' Gandalf would be expected to master the Ring. And also Sauron knew very well what Saruman was up to, but Sauron being able to use him only as a pawn in his desire to dominate:

'Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.'~The Uruk-hai

The big difference between 'good' and 'evil' is the evils inability to 'bond.' 'Good' can ally themselves and come together for a common goal, a common purpose, and a common enemy. Where 'evil' is just all in it for themselves. They may join together, because it would make their goals a lot easier, but behind all the 'buddy-buddy' they are just planning the other's downfall. Because after all there can't be two dark-lords ruling can there be?

I'll take when Sauron joins with Morgoth. A lot of people think that Morgoth sort of sullied or persuaded Sauron to join him. But, actually I think Sauron, much like Saruman was to him, was drawn to Morgoth and really was forming his own plans of ruling. And Sauron being smart knew that the best course for HIMSELF to rule would be to side with Morgoth for the time being...just as Saruman does with Sauron.

'It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.'~Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed

'Sauron had been attached to the greatest, Melkor, who ultimately became the inevitable Rebel and self-worshipper of mythologies that begin with a transcendent unique Creator.~'Letter 200

I think both of these show that Morgoth did not sort of sully Sauron to his side, but Sauron was attracted to Morgoth's power and will, and he soon attached himself to Morgoth.

Now why would Sauron do this? Well, because I feel like Sauron had his own aspirations of ruling, just as Saruman did. And Sauron knew that Morgoth was a much more inherently powerful being than he was, so in order to achieve his own goal of ruling, he'd join up with Morgoth, and eventually break away, and this is exactly whate he does:

Sauron was not a ’sincere’ atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda)..... To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest.~Morgoth’s Ring, Myths Transformed

Sauron did not 'sincerely' believe what Morgoth did or taught. But he knew if he used Morgoth's names and ideas that would make his goal of ruling a lot easier, as people would be drawn to him more. And this is exactly what happens:

'When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age he claimed to be Morgoth returned.'~Letter 183

As people start listening to him, and resistance was weakening, he was no longer Morgoth's 'servant,' his pride grew and eventually he conceived himself as being Morgoth himself.

Anway, where I'm going with all this is showing the inability for evil guys to bond together. They're in it for themselves. Sauron was drawn in by Morgoth's power, but Sauron himself had his own plans and goals, and he took the best route in joining Morgoth's side, eventhough he necessarily did not agree with his ideas. And this is exactly what Saruman does with Sauron:

A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Numenor. This then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow, and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in are hearts, deploring whatever evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpse: Knowledge, Rule, Order;....~The Council of Elrond

To make my long story short (sometimes I can go off a bit, let's see if I can tie this up). 'Evil' is all in it for themselves, Saruman planned on backstabbing Sauron, and Sauron knew very well what Saruman wanted to do. Seeing all this, I agree with Kuru in that Sauron had Saruman beaten in every aspect, in power, strength of numbers, and knowing what Saruman was up to, and playing Saruman to suit his own advantages. Going back to what Grishnakh said, Saruman was being fooled.

[Kuruharan]

The basis is do you think Sauron's orcs were anything like as strong as the Uruk-hai? The only way Sauron could have been victorious would be through sheer strength in numbers through weak puny orcs. Man-to-man the 10,000 Uruk-hai would probably obliviate even 30,000 Mordor orcs.

Unlikely. The physical differences between them were not that great. Historically speaking, the only way that armies are able to overcome disparities of this nature was by great technical (not physical) superiority or brilliant leadership. Isengard possessed neither of those. An army outnumbered three to one, all other things being relatively equal, would get swamped.

Take out the horses & then what result would you have forcasted?

*cough* I thought it painfully apparent that the example I was citing was the Battle of the Hornburg, where the Rohirrim chopped up the Isengarders largely without their horses.

That's a bold statement to make, Master Dwarf!

Not really. We're operating off of an impossible premise here.

Short of Sauron himself, who would force Saruman to hand over the Ring?

I think you just answered your own question.

And, quite frankly, within the safety of Orthanc, we know (from UT) that he needn't fear from Sauron.

I'm rather under the impression that if Isengard was placed under siege it would ultimately fall. Fortresses under siege do not hold out by themselves. There has to be outside help. Where was this outside help to come from in Saruman's case? If nothing else Saruman's physical body could have been starved to death. However, I suspect that long before that conclusion would have been reached, Sauron would have undermined Orthanc and caused it to collapse.

Did he have the military resources to hold off Mordor (and possibly the remnants of Rohan and Gondor)?

No.

We must, however, acknowledge that he had an army comparable to that of the "good" nations- which fended off Sauron for quite a few years.

Hmmm...comparable to Rohan, maybe. Gondor's actual military strength was greater than we saw at Minas Tirith because the southern fiefs were not exactly totally forthcoming with their men. I believe that Tolkien said that many of them only sent a tithe of their strength.

One also gets the impression that up until that point (at least in recent years) Sauron had not been trying that hard but was instead gathering everything together and conserving it for the final blow.

Furthermore, if Sauron had to fight his way past Gondor and Rohan- that would have bought Saruman more time.

Not necessarily. Isengard is actually rather exposed to attack from Mordor. The river could be crossed, and then it is just a march across the Wold, cross another little river, tramp, tramp, tramp, and there you are. Gondor would probably be out of this equation. The Rohirrim might be able to delay Sauron, but I doubt they could stop him.

I personally don't think it would have been long (in a count of years) before he would have been strong enough to crush Sauron with the Ring. The question is whether he would have had that time.

Is there something about Letter #246 that I've been missing all these years?

Let me try this yet again...

Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn...Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him-being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.
Letter #246

No amount of study would have helped Saruman gain the strength to master the Ring. He was a lesser being than Sauron. He did not have the power within him to be able to do it.

I fail to see how the phrase "only Gandalf" could possibly be up for any other interpretation than in the sense that "only Gandalf" would have been capable of mastering the Ring and challenging Sauron with any hope of emerging victorious.

EDIT: Cross-posted with Boromir88