LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 04 - The Siege of Gondor

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

He's one of the few instances in the stories which acknowledges that evil happens in many different ways, and that simply destroying the Dark Lord will not be the end of evil; this is why I think, Bb Denethor is being directly compared to that other 'free agent of evil' Shelob in that passage you somewhat coyly cited above. I have already promised at some point a fuller Denethor-Shelob meditation, but again time is against me here...

And having time enough, I shall coyly await your thoughts on Denethor-Shelob. I do so enjoy it when people pick up on my hints.

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

That makes me wonder why he was mad at Faramir at all for not getting it. Did Denethor think that the Ring would be the safest away from Sauron if it were in Gondor? Or did he really mean to use it, but said "I would hide it" so Gandalf would not know his real intention? Why did he want to have the Ring in his hands at all if he only thinks of hiding it, when there could be a whole lot of other hiding places?

(There goes me suspecting Denethor of lying. )

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

It is hard to deny that it is a reasonable assumption.

This is what is so fascinating about Denethor, the complexity of his motivation. It strikes me that in his vanity--as Fordim says, his 'vainglory'-- he assumes that he alone must or can save his city, whereas so much of LotR suggests that it is a community united in common belief and pursuits that provides the best defense. He is arguably one of the first to demonstrate the "Trust No one" perspective.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I would really be interested in exploring this point of view as it sheds light on, for example, Saruman, as I think most of our discussions here have tended towards an easy acceptance of the narrative's opinion of him.

Originally Posted by Fordim

But at the same time he is still a character in a story and not a real person, so I can only make sense of him in relation to other characters

Well I for one enjoy any discussion of Saruman as he is fascinating! Yes, I understand what you mean, that there can be two ways of analysing characters - either in context of the entire text, which is how we encounter them (coloured by other characters' opinions, reported behaviour and so forth, which is particularly relevant with Saruman) or alone, isolated within their part of the story. One of the reasons that these CbC discussions are so good is that it gives us a perfect opportunity to do just that.

When we read about a character we can only learn so much in any case, gleaning snippets from what has been put before us; in Tolkien's case we learn a lot more from their interactions and behaviour than from any interior monologues. So it pays to read closely.

And there's an odd thing, if you think about it, any character's mere existence is simply due to the fact that they play a part in the story. So we can analyse them or try to speculate on where exactly they went wrong, or how it came to be that they did the right thing, but it was all in the hands of the author all along.

But now I've wandered into one of the thorniest part of the woods...

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not sure I'd put it like that. I think a better way of phrasing it is that he would have preferred to have it in his own hands. His expressed desire it to have it locked away unused somewhere. He only planned to pull it out at the uttermost need (which I think shows that he did not understand it all that well because the uttermost need would probably be just a bit too late).

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

That makes me wonder why he was mad at Faramir at all for not getting it. Did Denethor think that the Ring would be the safest away from Sauron if it were in Gondor? Or did he really mean to use it, but said "I would hide it" so Gandalf would not know his real intention? Why did he want to have the Ring in his hands at all if he only thinks of hiding it, when there could be a whole lot of other hiding places?

When I came to the conclusion that Denethor 'needed' the Ring, it was pretty much in the way that Lhunardawen says. His anger at Faramir for not securing it, and his actions in sending Boromir (not only a beloved son, but a vital part of his military) suggest that he was determined to get it, despite the cost being high (the risk to Boromir and estrangement from Faramir). I would have thought that only need would have driven him to that. But I too think he may have been lying when he said he would just have hidden it.

Comparing Denethor with Theoden, we are lucky in that we get to see the King of Rohan after his period of madness. We see him in a variety of situations, including those which are relatively happy, such as talking to Merry as they ride. But we never get to see Denethor in those kinds of situations, we only get to see him at extremes. If we visit a town when it is raining and all the shops are shut we might think it's a horrible place and if we never go back nothing will change our opinion; that is how we see Denethor sadly. but as I've said, maybe that's how we have to see him, as he's a character, there to fulfill a purpose.

[Kuruharan]

I'm not sure he would have been all that different even in less stressful situations. He probably always felt himself a bit put upon. Everyone liked Thorongil better than him, his wife kicked the bucket at a rather young age, one of his sons was disappointing to him...

He is described as being "kingly." Kingly has connotations of nobility, wisdom, leadership and so forth. However, it can also have connotations of aloofness and other less savory descriptors.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

In this chapter you indeed feel breathless, waiting for the onset of a ruinous storm. Many things have been set off against each other in preparation of their coming clash, like the indomitable walls of Minas Tirith against the spear of terror of Minas Morgul. The White Tower must have a lot going for it, as no enemy has ever stepped foot inside it, but Sauron does know how to hit it hard where it counts.

Now, I find this description of Faramir interesting:

Here was one with an air of high nobility such as Aragorn at times revealed, less high perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote: one of the Kings of Men born into a later time, but touched with the sadness of the Elder Race.

LR V 4

Now, compare this to the Captain of the opposing force. The Witch-King was also one of the Kings of Men that survived into a later time, yet this one was touched with the malice and darkness of Sauron.

Later on, we see this said about Faramir:

He was a captain that men would follow . . . even under the shadow of the black wings.

ibid

What about the Witch-King? What does his men think of him?

[Messenger: ]His own folk quail at him, and they would slay themselves at his bidding.

ibid

They were both captains Men would follow, but for different reasons. One allows his men to overcome fear, the other uses fear to overcome his men.


Speaking of the Witch-King . . .

[Witch-King: ]Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!

ibid

[Merry] shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.

LR V 3--emphasis mine

Funny how Dernhelm got her . . . I mean his wish.


And about Denethor:

Denethor [asked] . . . questions about . . . the position of Éomer, the king's nephew.

LR V 4

Why, I wonder? Did he think that Théoden would do what he does?

[Denethor: ][Sauron] will not come save to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise . . .

ibid

[davem]

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'

This always interested me - 'the abyss that awaits you!' 'Fall into the nothingness that awaits you & your Master.'

Gandalf says that the 'abyss' has been prepared for the WK & for Sauron, that 'nothingness' awaits them. Prepared by whom? Only by Eru. Their fate has been decided, their 'free will' taken away? What's interesting is the WK's response: Gandalf fortells that 'nothingness' awaits him, he throws back his hood to reveal...?

The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

Well, nothing. 'Nothingness' does not await him - it has already taken him. He is literally 'nothing'. Interestingly, Eowyn will name him dwimmerlaik (lit. 'phantom/illusion'). His laughter is 'deadly', because it is the laughter of one who is dead, a ghost, a 'nothing'. He has become the 'abyss'. He goes on to admit this:

'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.

Gandalf's threat has failed to cow him - not because it was vain bluster on the Wizard's part, but because what he has threatened has already occured. So the WK can laugh his 'deadly laugh'. I think this is where his sense of 'indestructibility' arises - when he says none may slay him, he believes it, because he knows he has already been slain. What he will threaten Eowyn with later - her flesh shall be devoured & her shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye - this has been his own fate.

Finally, we have the second animal in the story whose thoughts are given. First was the fox in the woods of the Shire, curious about the doings of Hobbits, now we have the cock in Minas Tirith.

This bird has no interest in 'wizardry or war' - he only feels welcome for the dawn:

Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.

Whether there was in Tolkien's mind any connection between the crowing of this cock & the crowing of the cock in the Gospels is a question I can't answer, obviously, but its interesting that that cockcrow signalled the lowest point of the Christian story, but the point at which everything was about to turn around with the Crucifixion & Resurrection of Christ. Here we have a similar symbolic cockcrow, & many will die this day, but by the end of it a new king will have 'arisen'....

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Whether there was in Tolkien's mind any connection between the crowing of this cock & the crowing of the cock in the Gospels is a question I can't answer, obviously, but its interesting that that cockcrow signalled the lowest point of the Christian story, but the point at which everything was about to turn around with the Crucifixion & Resurrection of Christ. Here we have a similar symbolic cockcrow, & many will die this day, but by the end of it a new king will have 'arisen'....

Gosh, davem, here you are bringing 'baggage' into the story from outside reading instead of just allowing yourself to experience the cock as a cock crowing to announce the dawn. Middle earth didn't have all that many clocks or, apparently, bells. Can't a cock just be a cock?

[HerenIstarion]

Gosh, davem, here you are bringing 'baggage' into the story from outside reading instead of just allowing yourself to experience the cock as a cock crowing to announce the dawn. Middle earth didn't have all that many clocks or, apparently, bells. Can't a cock just be a cock?

Gosh, Bb , he came walking, no baggage upon his person. Let us imagine davem entering dimly lit manor, where the enormous picture is hung over the fireplace, and that is what catches the eye and has the beholder enthralled and drawn to itself immediately upon entering. But once the eye grows accustomed to the half-defined shadows, lot of other trifles may be seen placed here and there, apparantly at random, but not so upon reflection, and not trifles at all upon some more, which may seem apart from the big picture, but which help, in fact, define it, and the picture without items around would be, well, appealing, beautiful, awesome, but still just a picture, but with those placed around, it also tells a story and aslo reminds of things once known, and maybe forgotten. Whatever you see davem holding, is not a thing he brought from the outside, it was picked up in the manor for closer examination, or for wonder, or for pleasure and joy.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Gosh, davem, here you are bringing 'baggage' into the story from outside reading instead of just allowing yourself to experience the cock as a cock crowing to announce the dawn. Middle earth didn't have all that many clocks or, apparently, bells. Can't a cock just be a cock?

No I'm not. I'm merely pointing up a similarity, & speculating on whether that might have been in the author's mind. What I mean by 'baggage' is dragging in things from the primary world/readers own experience & imposing them on the secondary world. Applicability = the secondary world shining a light on the primary world & thereby illuminating some aspect of it. Allegory = forcing the primary world onto the secondary world until it submits.

(Can't believe you thought I couldn't talk my way out of that one )

[denethorthefirst]

Originally Posted by davem

This always interested me - 'the abyss that awaits you!' 'Fall into the nothingness that awaits you & your Master.'

Gandalf says that the 'abyss' has been prepared for the WK & for Sauron, that 'nothingness' awaits them. Prepared by whom? Only by Eru. Their fate has been decided, their 'free will' taken away? What's interesting is the WK's response: Gandalf fortells that 'nothingness' awaits him, he throws back his hood to reveal...?

Gandalf's threat has failed to cow him - not because it was vain bluster on the Wizard's part, but because what he has threatened has already occured. So the WK can laugh his 'deadly laugh'. I think this is where his sense of 'indestructibility' arises - when he says none may slay him, he believes it, because he knows he has already been slain. What he will threaten Eowyn with later - her flesh shall be devoured & her shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye - this has been his own fate.

The Witch-King and the rest of the Nazgul are NOT dead and they still have a hroa, even though it is not visible to the mortal eye. They are still human. Sauron cannot deny them the gift of Iluvatar.

[Galadriel55]

To add a quick point to a long discussion [which I admittedly haven't read yet]:

This chapter highlights the importance of other characters' opinions in forming our own. We learn to love Faramir more from his reputation than his own deeds. This process started in Minas Tirith with Beregond's devoted attitude, and continues here with more from Beregond and love and love and admiration from soldiers and citizens alike. And hearing and seeing such a devoted response and a positive reflection, you end up loving the guy yourself.

A phrase that particularly sticks with me is "he can master both beasts and men" - to be echoed later in the chapter as "he can govern man and beast". This is the description which I associate best with Faramir and by which I would describe him. This is the Aragorn in him - perhaps some Elvish blood but more so his steadfast will and courage, enough of it to go around the men and the beasts. His presence is not bright but it is very steady. Unfortunately his strength is not bottomless, and as the more he shares and the more it is drained the less he has for himself. It is astounding though how much he could accomplish before running out though.