Rocks, Hard Places, etc....

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

To answer that, I would like to emphasise the "free" part of free will: freedom implies a lack of constraints, or -- put another way -- an infinitude of possibility. One's will is unfettered by all considerations other than what the will desires.

I disagree. Free will is not unfettered in our world and so it can never be unfettered in any fantasy world which approximates to our own. "Free" within this context, therefore, cannot be construed as impying a total lack of constraints.

We necessarily have limited free will because we cannot do whatever we desire. I could not simpy walk through the Alps, even though I might desire to do so. I would have to walk either round or over them (and even then I would not have unlimited free will to do so as I liked). In both our world and in Middle-earth there can be no such thing as unlimited free will, and so the phrase "free will" must necessarily imply a degree of restriction.

Of course, Middle-earth is not our own world, and so free will within it is of a different nature. In many respects it is more restricted, as a consequence of matters such as the existence of Eru's plan, the immortality of the Elves and the various Dooms that are pronounced. But, limited though it may be, free will still exists.

And I would argue that the existence of free will does not preclude the operation of fate. If someone is fated to do or experience something, that does not prevent them exercising their free will in matters which do not impact upon that fated outcome. Even with regard to matters which do impact on it, they still have (limited) free will to choose the path which gets them there. Turin, for example, had freedom of action in many respects, but could not avoid the Doom which Morgoth had pronounced. His free will was limited by his fate. But he nevertheless had (limited) free will.

So I will vote for both.

[Thinlómien]

One clear example of free will can be found in FotR chapter 10. (Sorry I can't quote this, but I don't have LotR in english). Frodo is in Amon Hen and the two forces, the Eye and the Voice fight inside his mind. The Eye orders him to come to it and the Voice orders him to take the ring off. (I tried to translate the following sentence): "Suddenly he became aware of himself again. Frodo - not the Voice nor the Eye - was free to choose and there was only a little moment of time. He took the Ring off his finger."
That's clearly free will, isn't it?

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I voted "yes and no". I don't have any real text evidence to support this...and it's mostly influenced by my own worldview.

I think that without some degree of free will, our actions lose their meaning, and that goes for LOTR, too. If everyone in the story was acting *completely* according to destiny or fate, a lot of the amazing moments lose their power. For instance, Frodo's choice to take the Ring. It's a much more amazing thing to consider if you believe that he was acting of his own free will in making that choice: He could have said no and gone home, but instead he took the Ring and endured all kinds of pain and suffering as a result.

However, some things must have been meant to happen. Aragorn fights an inner battle about his heritage and birthright, but in the end, he takes the position as king and leader. This, I think, was fate. He would, one way or another, eventually become King, even if he had made a totally different string of choices.

[Morsul the Dark]

Here's how I look at it yes you have freedom of choice, but..... Have you ever done something even though you didn't want to and it came out right in the end?

What I'm saying is free will is an illusion there is no such thing we think there is but there isnt

edit:thats why i put probably both

I don't think there is free will but maybe im MADE to believe there is no free will

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Is there a rule against saying that Harry Potter changed my mind? I'll post the three paragraphs that did it. No worries though, it's not anything that'll spoil the book for you. Just babbling about that there prophecy. Although if you haven't read the fifth book, I guess it does spoil it. Oh well.

"Of course you would!" cried Dumbledore. "You see, the prophecy does not mean you have to do anything! But the prophecy caused Lord Voldemort to mark you as his equal... In other words, you are free to choose your way, quite free to turn your back on the prophecy! But Voldemort continues to set store by the prophecy. He will continue to hunt you... which makes it certain, really, that--"

"That one of us is going to end up killing the other." said Harry. "Yes."

But he understood at last what Dumbledore had been trying to tell him. It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to fight a battle ot the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people, perhaps, would say that there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew-- and so do I, thought Harry, with a rush of fierce pride, and so did my parents-- that there was all the difference in the world.

So as long as people believe in fate, they will continue to follow what their fate seems to be, dragging those who don't want anything to do with right along side. But you have the choice to turn tail and run, or to continue on.

Frodo did not want the Ring, even though Gandalf said he was "meant" to have it. He could have tossed it somewhere, but because of so many other people after it, his life would have ended up pretty miserably anyhow. That and his love for the Shire caused him to greet his fate with open arms (or at least moderately spread fingers) instead of waiting for it to track him down against his will.

I also got switched by Peter David's The Woad to Wuin. I can't give a direct quote (alas, libraries like their books returned), but Sharee makes it clear to Apropos that even if you can't escape your fate, every choice you make will affect it. Just because it's been a guarantee since you were born that you're going to fight the most powerful jerk to ever exist (for example) doesn't mean that your preparation and choices make it any less. You could go into the battle fully prepared and win, or you could go to battle kicking and screaming with four fingers missing off your left hand and no hair because it got burned off by a rampaging dragon you decided to steal from. Even though the big things might be set out, it's the little things that determine their outcome.

So yeah... based on everything except Lord of the Rings, I've just come to a new conclusion about them. How intriguing. Anyhow... 'f'it were possible, I'd switch my die-hard no to a die-hard maybe.