Misc. Questions

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Actually, no. Rehousing STRENGTHENS an elf, not weakens him.

In the case of Glorfindel, the reason for his great power in both the regular world and the spirit realm was due not only to being a Noldo of Valinor, but also due to his rehousing.

In the texts dealing with Elven reincarnation, Tolkien says that the reincarnated Elf is even more unlikely to be killed than a never-killed Elf, having a body even better suited to withstand turmoil, and having a greater "spiritual" presence. I believe that he also says that there are few or no known cases of reincarnated Elves being killed.

That said, a reincarnated Elf is the original Elf, in a near-identical, but pretty much perfect, copy of his (going with the male pronoun out of habit) previous self- and contains all the memories and skills that he had before. There is no reason to assume that the reincarnated Elf is any weaker.

The Glorfindel of the 1st age was able to fight with a Balrog (a freakin Maia) but in the 3rd age, not much of that potency is felt. He's lingering in Rivendell. So you're saying that a re-embodied elf is better than the great survivors such as Cirdan & Galadriel? 'Coz from what I get is that even these two have strong spiritual presences.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

The Glorfindel of the 1st age was able to fight with a Balrog (a freakin Maia) but in the 3rd age, not much of that potency is felt. He's lingering in Rivendell. So you're saying that a re-embodied elf is better than the great survivors such as Cirdan & Galadriel? 'Coz from what I get is that even these two have strong spiritual presences.

Okay...

I am only going with what Tolkien wrote...

But remember that Cirdan and Galadriel were VERY important Elves- very potent Elves. Glorfindel, while powerful, is no Cirdan or Galadriel.

Perhaps I ought to have merely said that reincarnating an Elf merely doesn't WEAKEN him, and left it at that. However, the textual evidence left by Tolkien DOES suggest that a reincarnated Elf is stronger than his previous self.

However, if Glorfindel was $25 before his death, multiplying him to $50 doesn't make him worth more than the $60 Cirdan was to begin with, or the $65 Galadriel was...

NOTE: These are random numbers, being used as an example, and are not intended to be any sort of in-depth comparison of the relative powers of the great Eldar.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

The Glorfindel of the 1st age was able to fight with a Balrog (a freakin Maia) but in the 3rd age, not much of that potency is felt. He's lingering in Rivendell. So you're saying that a re-embodied elf is better than the great survivors such as Cirdan & Galadriel? 'Coz from what I get is that even these two have strong spiritual presences..

Originally Posted by Formendacil

But remember that Cirdan and Galadriel were VERY important Elves- very potent Elves. Glorfindel, while powerful, is no Cirdan or Galadriel.

Perhaps I ought to have merely said that reincarnating an Elf merely doesn't WEAKEN him, and left it at that. However, the textual evidence left by Tolkien DOES suggest that a reincarnated Elf is stronger than his previous self.

I am not sure that Glorfindel was any less important or more important than Galadriel or Celeborn. (Edit: I thoughthtat GLorfindel could withstand the nine but I was wrongo: )

On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not with stand all the Nine at once.

Gandalf spoke highly of him. (But then, Frodo faced the nine too.)

Regarding the fact that Glorfindel lingered in Rivendell-- well, strictly speaking, so did Elrond; and Galadriel and Celeborn 'lingered' in Lorien. Their power was behind-the-scenes, and I would expect Glorfindel's power to be also primarily "behind the scenes".

The bit I do remember about GLorfindel is that he was in both worlds; and Gandalf explained that as follows:

‘What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?’

‘Yes, at present, until all else is conquered. The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.’

‘I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?’

‘Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes. Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while: and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire. But all such places will soon become islands under siege, if things go on as they are going.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.’

So the elves of Valinor have power against the invisible as well (they can see them)?
May I ask from what house does Glorfindel hail? He's not one of the house Finwe or Olwe or Ingwe.


I've got new questions:

#1 I've got a new one. Now after the War of Wrath, the xiles were allowed to return not to Valinor but in Avallone (Tol Eressea). What about for the remaining great Eldar? Surely they would not band Galadriel to dwell in Aman (Valimar) to let her be content with an isle (Eressea) in sight of Valinor? After all she was deemed greatest among the Eldar & had the power to intercede for Frodo & Gimli.

#2 Had Gandalf not fallen with the Balrog, what gift would he have received from Galadriel in Lorien?

#3 What race did Dior belong to? An Elf or a mortal?

#4 Will the Doom of Mandos (fading) apply to Thranduil & his subjects?

#5 In your personal opinion, do you think the Elves who remained in Valinor during the turmoils of Morgoth & Sauron in ME became mightier than those who lingered & endured their malice?

# How was Glorfindel able to slay a Balrog (Maia) & Finrod can't even scratch Sauron?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

I am not sure that Glorfindel was any less important or more important than Galadriel or Celeborn. (Edit: I thoughthtat GLorfindel could withstand the nine but I was wrongo: ) Gandalf spoke highly of him. (But then, Frodo faced the nine too.)

Well, I'm not tied to that interpretation myself- I was just arguing with the acceptance of that point of view to show that one's strength is not diminished (in Elven cases) by death, upon reincarnation, but can be, in fact, strengthened.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

#1 I've got a new one. Now after the War of Wrath, the xiles were allowed to return not to Valinor but in Avallone (Tol Eressea). What about for the remaining great Eldar? Surely they would not band Galadriel to dwell in Aman (Valimar) to let her be content with an isle (Eressea) in sight of Valinor? After all she was deemed greatest among the Eldar & had the power to intercede for Frodo & Gimli.

#2 Had Gandalf not fallen with the Balrog, what gift would he have received from Galadriel in Lorien?

#3 What race did Dior belong to? An Elf or a mortal?

#4 Will the Doom of Mandos (fading) apply to Thranduil & his subjects?

#5 In your personal opinion, do you think the Elves who remained in Valinor during the turmoils of Morgoth & Sauron in ME became mightier than those who lingered & endured their malice?

#6 How was Glorfindel able to slay a Balrog (Maia) & Finrod can't even scratch Sauron?

New Questions:

#7 Was Sauron more powerful than the Balrog of Moria? Could he have enslaved it to his allegiance?

#8 If Luthien (w/out Huan's aid) & Sauron was pitted against eachother, who would be the victor?

#9 If the Balrog was unleashed & came to Lothlorien, Would the Galadhrim surivive (along with the power of Galadriel)?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

#7 Was Sauron more powerful than the Balrog of Moria? Could he have enslaved it to his allegiance?

Yes, Sauron was more powerful than the Balrog- indeed, more than all the Balrogs. As it says in the Valaquenta:

Among those of his [Morgoth's] servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself.

Whether or not Sauron could have enslaved the Balrog to his allegiance, that is a question that cannot be satisfactorily answered. The Balrog, while weaker, is still a mighty Umaia in its own right. Personally, I should say that Sauron- with the Ring- would likely have been able to do so, but that is just my gut feeling.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

#8 If Luthien (w/out Huan's aid) & Sauron was pitted against eachother, who would be the victor?

#9 If the Balrog was unleashed & came to Lothlorien, Would the Galadhrim surivive (along with the power of Galadriel)?

Since Tolkien never gave us a Power Comparisons Table, it's really impossible to say on either of these questions. Like any Alternative Storyline, it is entirely up to conjecture. In both cases, I'd say it would be a close fight either way.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Formendacil,

I checked Wikipedia for Sauron & here's what they said about him:

but in secret Sauron forged the One Ring in Mount Doom to rule the Elvish rings, investing most of his own power into the Ring as he forged it. By doing so, he became more powerful than his master Morgoth at the end of the First Age, whose fëa ("soul" or "spirit"), while stronger, was dispersed into the matter of Arda. When Sauron put on the One Ring and tried to dominate the Elves, they resisted, and Sauron came upon them in the War of the Elves and Sauron and, had it not been for the intervention of Númenor, might have defeated them

So he became mightier than Morgoth when he wore the One Ring right?

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

The Glorfindel of the 1st age was able to fight with a Balrog (a freakin Maia) but in the 3rd age, not much of that potency is felt. He's lingering in Rivendell.

Glorfindel is not merely 'lingering' in Rivendell, he was sent back to aid Elrond and the others against Sauron. Wasn't he involved in the war against Angmar, and he was one of the few left who had power enough to withstand the nine ringwraiths, and Gandalf describes him as a very powerful elf-lord to Frodo and during the Council of Elrond. He may not have had the power of Galadriel or the wisdom of Cirdan but there are definite pointers and allusions to the power of Glorfindel.