Learning Quenya - Discussion Thread

[Durelin]

I actually prefer the verb at the end of the sentence. But only be cause I'm used to translating Latin...

But, as TGWBS said, it's useful to be able to put it in whatever order you'd like... It's sad that you can't do that with English...shows you what kind of language we have, doesn't it?

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by durelin

But, as TGWBS said, it's useful to be able to put it in whatever order you'd like... It's sad that you can't do that with English...shows you what kind of language we have, doesn't it?

Technically, you can do whatever you like in poetry. As long as it's still intelligible, anything goes.

Originally Posted by durelin

We have cookies?!

Yes.

Actually, durelin, learning every single day? Good luck to you! Kath and I are going at a rate of about one lesson per week, which we think works quite well.

Does anybody here (who has got to lesson three) like to put the adjective after the noun?

I parma carne - The book red
Instead of
I carne parma - The red book.

Again, it's incredibly handy that you can use both, because it makes it that much easier to rhyme. I prefer the English method in sentences though.

[Encaitare]

Ye Olde Short One, I personally prefer the way which mirrors the English form, because it's what I am used to. But, like you said, in poetry anything goes!

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Does anybody here (who has got to lesson three) like to put the adjective after the noun?

I parma carne - The book red
Instead of
I carne parma - The red book.

Again, I think that the first version is more poetic and I think I even know why. In old Finnish poems and song lyrics the word order is similar to "I parma carnë" - noun comes before an adjective. I think I'm going to use both ways in my writings even if I don't make them rhyme (so it won't be necessary).

So, when can we have cookies?

[Lhunardawen]

I suppose in answering the exercises we can use the 'English' format for greater ease. But, as everyone else already said, we can play around with the order when writing Quenya poetry. I suppose putting the adjective after the noun tends to emphasize the adjective rather than the noun? Like

I carnë parma (of Westmarch ) - you just have to know it is a red book

as opposed to

I parma carnë - the book (is) red...it is 'more important' for you to know the color of the book than the book instead

or something like that in a smaller scale?

EDIT: How do we avail of these cookies, tgwbs?

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by She who was Spawned

Again, I think that the first version is more poetic and I think I even know why. In old Finnish poems and song lyrics the word order is similar to "I parma carnë" - noun comes before an adjective.

Technically, this can be done in English too. To quote the Lay of Leithian:

‘twas sewn with golden lilies fair

And other such instances.

I think I'll simply use whichever seems more aesthetically pleasing at the time. That's what Quenya is all about, after all.

Originally Posted by The Lhunatic

I suppose putting the adjective after the noun tends to emphasize the adjective rather than the noun?

I'd disagree with that actually. I think it was just a feature of the language, rather than having any effect on emphasis; the red book and the book red being interchangable. Looking at the examples given in the exercise, I don't think there's any reason to think that having the adjective after the noun emphasises it, though it may look liek that to native English speakers.

Originally Posted by Lhunspawnlin

We have cookies?!
So, when can we have cookies?
How do we avail of these cookies, tgwbs?

Well, to be honest, the reference to cookies was false advertising. The idea is, people see my siggy and think "Ooh! Cookies! I like cookies..." *click* Then they come to Quenya, and it's such a lovely idea they forget about the cookies.

[Durelin]

Actually, durelin, learning every single day? Good luck to you!

Well, not every day. But most. It's just like my Latin classes...everyday. (Well, during the school year...) I just enjoy it, so if I find myself at all bored (which is pretty often, since I have no life), then I study Quenya. The thrill of learning a language is just wonderful. Believe me, I really feel that way. No, really.

Well, to be honest, the reference to cookies was false advertising. The idea is, people see my siggy and think "Ooh! Cookies! I like cookies..." *click*

I almost clicked a few days ago, forgetting I had already joined...

[vanwalossien]

Oh, I can make cookies. Anyone who shows up at my work on tuesday to keep me company is welcome to lembas (or chocolate cookies, mmmm, chocolate.. ). Silly job, giving me no time for more important things, like learning Quenya...

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Lhuna

I suppose putting the adjective after the noun tends to emphasize the adjective rather than the noun?

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I'd disagree with that actually. I think it was just a feature of the language, rather than having any effect on emphasis; the red book and the book red being interchangable. Looking at the examples given in the exercise, I don't think there's any reason to think that having the adjective after the noun emphasises it, though it may look liek that to native English speakers.

Actually, Lhuna has a point there. This following extract is from lesson 4.

In Quenya, it is however also permissible to let the adjective follow the noun. For instance, Markirya has anar púrëa for "a bleared sun", literally "(a) sun bleared", and in LR:47 we have mallë téra, literally "road straight", for "a straight road" (cf. LR:43). Perhaps this word order is used if you want to emphasize the adjective: the context in LR:47 indicates that this is a straight road as opposed to a bent one. However, letting the adjective follow the noun may be the normal word order in the case of an adjectival "title" that is used in conjunction with a proper name: In UT:305 cf. 317 we have Elendil Voronda for "Elendil the Faithful"

We are now moving to lesson 5 with Lhuna!

[the guy who be short]

The "perhaps" seems to show a bit of uncertainty on Helge's part. I'd say it's open to interpretation.

Feanor, do you think you'll be coming back to us afterwards? Enca, are you sure you're fine learning by yourself?

Kath has also gone for two weeks (holiday) so we've temporarily paused too.

Is anybody else having Quenya hallucinations in real life? I just read The Island of Doctor Moreau and one of my first thoughts was "Moreau! Aha! 'Tis a linguistic pun, Mor meaning dark and Eau meaning water in French and... Quenya."