Does LotR have cross-cultural appeal?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Esty

I don't know of three translations in German, but I have looked briefly into both the old and new. The latter is rejected by many German fans because it doesn't do the spirit of the work justice, yet the former is a bit wooden. Quite frankly, since I read the original first, I can't get myself to settle for second or third best, so I don't read the translations.

The three translations mentioned in the articel are by Margaret Carroux (1969/70), Roswith Krege-Meyer (1991) & Wolfgang Krege (2000). According to the article the 'revised & corrected' translation (Krege-Meyer) was around for a while but is now out of print.

Originally Posted by Novnarwen

Davem, settings or story? In your first post you said that you were surprised, and found it odd, that Non-English speakers ’even got the story’. Now, you’re saying that you meant the ‘settings.’

I suppose I don't distinguish between settings & story - perhaps to me the setting is the story. the Legendarium is the story of Middle earth.

I am prepared to accept that I'm completely wrong about it, of course.....

[Mithalwen]

As for the settings, apart from the Shire I never felt them especially English and other than always identifying the New Forest where I grew up as Mirkwood, my strongest "this is middle earth" experiences overseas - albeit in anglophone countries. One was in Gippsland in Victoria, Australia, the other was watching dawn over the approaching Rockies. I felt like Bilbo seeing the Misty Mountains in the Hobbit.

[Lalwendë]

I'm certain that the whole subject of translation does have an important bearing on whether a book becomes popular worldwide. It may be that one country does not ahve access to good translations as H-I has said happened in Georgia while another country may be 'blessed' with particularly good versions. I would guess that many countries are just like the UK and that the majority of the population do not possess a decent enough knowledge of a foreign language to tackle a book as long and complex as LotR if it is not in their native tongue. So those people would rely on good translations.

I particularly love Goethe's Faust and I got hold of a very old copy in the original German to see if it was any better in the original; I took German up to the age of 18 but my knowledge was nowhere near good enough to tackle Faust. In addition, I have never used the language practically so I was unable to read it. In practical terms I can imagine it is much the same for other people wanting to read something 'in the original language'. I have known many people who have taught themselves English through sheer determination just to read a book or enjoy pop music better (I even know one woman who learned English via MTV - the mind boggles) but it does take a huge amount of effort and possibly natural talent, sadly.

Considering those who are English speaking but from different cultural backgrounds, there could be other factors to take into consideration. Maybe there are a lot of Tolkien fans who are from different backgrounds, but it might simply be that they do not use forums such as this. In my experience, not many British people of Asian descent use internet forums (at least not the ones I use, and they are not all specialised like this), but I think this may have a lot to do with the 'digital divide' and the lack of opportunity to get access to the net.

One thing that does interest me is whether people from different backgrounds/ages get different things from the story, e.g. do they enjoy it as a simple adventure, do they appreciate the action more than the description, and so on? Is there something about your personality (as oppsed to your background) that might 'pre-dispose' you to be a Rings fan?

[Formendacil]

Hmm... countryside...

I think that people tend to associate what they know with what they read. As an Alberta boy, my visions of the Misty Mountains are inevitably coloured by the Rockies. Mirkwood becomes BC. Lorien becomes the Edmonton-area parkland. The plains of Rohan become Saskatchewan. Anduin becomes the Red Deer River..

And so on...

But with things like the Shire, where the description is of a general countryside with which I am unfamiliar, of small hills and farms, and trees like oaks, I am admittedly at a loss. I imagine that if I ever visited rural England, I would be able to see it a lot more clearly.

[The Saucepan Man]

Some great responses. Thank you to all who have contributed.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I wonder if book sales info is available for various countries, both for English and translated forms.

I wondered that too, as I tend to agree that merely going by Barrow-Downs membership is unlikely to be the most accurate of indicators, given language issues. I tried Googling, but found little of use. Nevertheless, I do have a hunch that Tolkien’s works are more widely read in what might broadly be described as the “west” than elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

One point to be considered about the books is the quality of the translation into other languages. We have Tolkien's thoughts on various translations, but if the books aren't 'page turners' in a person's native language, they won't attract many readers.

A good point. Although the problems that have been referred to with, for example, the German translations do not seem to have affected its popularity in Germany. Then again, English is commonly spoken to a high standard in many parts of Germany and the same applies, I believe, with regard to the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries. And, while the same might be said of France and (to a lesser extent) Spain and Italy, I guess the “own language preference” point explains the lack of Downers from these countries.

I would expect the language barrier to be the greatest obstacle where an entirely different alphabet is used. That will certainly be an issue in most Islamic and Far Eastern countries. However, the Russian alphabet is unique and, as HI has indicated, Tolkien has (or at least had) quite a following in Russia, so I think that there is more to it than this. It seems to me that the culture of many parts of Russia and also many of the former soviet states (Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia for example) have much in common with Europe when it comes to matters such as mythology, history and faith. Moreso, for example, than countries like China or Saudi Arabia.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

But then, consider literacy rates elsewhere too. People in large parts of the foreign world simply don't have the chance to learn to read, yet alone read Tolkien.

Fair point, although I was more thinking in terms of those from different (ie non-“western”) cultures who are literate and who do have access, one way or another, to Tolkien’s works. Do the books hold as much appeal to them as they do for those from, or who are aqcuainted with, “western” cultures?

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Culture...

That is an interesting term.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I think we should probably consider nationality as well as ethnicity if we're going to be discussing the appeal Tolkien has.

I agree that “culture” is a difficult concept to define in this context. My Compact Oxford English Dictionary defines it as:

… the customs, institutions and achievements of a particular nation, people or group.

When considering the appeal of Tolkien to different cultures, it seems to me that we should focus on the belief system, history, mythology and traditions of those cultures. So, for example, the Rohirrim will seem rather familiar to those who are acquainted with pre-medieval European history. But would they seem as familiar to someone from China, or to an Australian Aborigine? Their history and cultural roots are not the same. Similarly, Goblins and Trolls are creatures from European mythology, albeit interpreted by Tolkien. Perhaps, through translation, the equivalent creatures from other mythologies may be co-opted into the story, but then will readers be seeing something different?

Of course, as a result of the migration of peoples that has taken place throughout history, cultures will transcend national boundaries and ethnicity, and will become blurred. Indeed, as davem points out, one of Tolkien’s stated intentions in writing LotR and his other works, was to provide a mythology for England which he felt to be lacking. But the mythological roots of the legendarium remain very much rooted in European tradition.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

But considering that ethnicity doesn't really affect anything about a person … I don't see any importance there.

Yes. I would agree with you there. Ethnicity, in terms of racial stock, is certainly not the same thing as culture and, while ethnic origin may be an indicator of culture, it is not in itself a factor in determining whether a book based upon a certain cultural tradition will have any particular appeal to a person. Ethnicity, therefore, is perhaps rather a red herring.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I was born into a Hindu family, but living in Britain I also have a firm knowledge of Christianity. I can only presume my love of Tolkien would still exist, were that not the case. I am an atheist, and I know LotR appeals to a lot of atheists and agnostics as well as to Christians and Jews.

I agree. I would describe myself as an agnostic, and this has not affected my appreciation of LotR. Indeed, until recently, I was unaware of Tolkien’s faith and did not pick up on the religious undertones in his works at all. Having said that, I am familiar with Christian ideals and so perhaps there was a degree of connection there, even though I did not appreciate it at the time.

Then again, the kinds of concepts which LotR espouses – its morality, if you like – are not exclusive to Christianity. Do these shared concepts appeal to those of other faiths, even though the “trappings” within which they are presented are Christian in origin?

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I know Japanese Tolkien addicts from other sites ...

I find that interesting, given that Japan has a very distinctive cultural tradition. What is it in Tolkien’s works, I wonder, that appeals to Japanese fans? Do they see it differently to “westerners”, ie as interpreted by reference to their own mythological and cultural traditions, or do they see it as a story based upon a different culture, but one which nonetheless contains messages with which they can identify? Difficult to generalise, I know. But it would be interesting to know how the book “translates” to different cultures (in the minds of readers, rather than on the page). Does the imagery of the films, while familiar to most European/North American fans, seem slightly alien to those from other cultural traditions?

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

So the story can be cast in different ways, according to the tenets of the culture. I'd think any story must gain and lose meanings in translation, though, for the very reason of cultural and expressive differences...

I tend to agree with that although, while the style of translation on the page may have a bearing, I do think that it is perhaps more a matter of translation in the mind of the reader.

Originally Posted by davem

I've always been slightly surprised that non-English readers even get the story, as its always seemed so very English to me. A pleasant surprise, of course, but odd, to me, nonetheless....

Originally Posted by davem

I meant that to me the settings - particularly the parts set in the Shire, & the Hobbits themselves seem so English that I've always been surprised that non-English readers can relate to them so deeply.

It does not surprise me that non-English readers can relate to the visual backdrop to the story since, while the Shire might be very much grounded in the English countryside, the plains of Rohan, the peaks of the Misty Mountains and the depths of Moria will be recognisable to those from many other countries. So, it is not so much the landscape of Middle-earth which I suspect may be unfamiliar to some readers from different cultures, but rather the depiction of its peoples and their traditions. From Hobbits to Dwarves, from Elves to Ents and from Gondorians to Rohirrim, their depiction is unambiguously European.

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

I ascribe to this very translation (it being the first as well) the popularity Tolkien has in Russia. It subsided of late, but there certainly was a phenomenon known as 'Tolkien craze', which burst out (and was mainly manned with young people - teenagers main part, but up to people in their 'late tweens') by the end of 80s, following publication of 'short version' translation of LoTR in 1982 and first full translation in 1988.

Thank you, HI, for your excellent description of the “Tolkien craze” in Russia. I would be interested to know whether it gained a greater following amongst the Slavic peoples of Russia than amongst those from the Muslim and other cultural traditions. Would you be able to shed any light on that? You indicate that the books have a following in Azerbaijan, which would suggests that it does have some following amongst Muslim peoples. But could the same be said with regard to Iran or Saudi Arabia, I wonder.

Further thoughts, anyone?

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by SpM

I would describe myself as an agnostic, and this has not affected my appreciation of LotR. Indeed, until recently, I was unaware of Tolkien’s faith and did not pick up on the religious undertones in his works at all. Having said that, I am familiar with Christian ideals and so perhaps there was a degree of connection there, even though I did not appreciate it at the time.

When I read, I tend to separate my mindset from that of the so-called real world without even realizing it. And not having a Christian view from the beginning, I never made any kind of connection in that sense. Of course, I read at the beginning of FotR that LotR is a "fundamentally Christian work," but that had little effect on my reading. I generally accept books as their own little contained worlds, just appreciating the stories in and of themselves, and it's not until I have read them several times over that I begin to make deeper sorts of connections. It was this forum that actually alerted me to the actual depth of LotR. But even knowing about the presence of this "applicability," it doesn't overwhelm me when I read; it usually doesn't cross my mind. The few exceptions are where there is supposed to be intervention from Eru, which I originally interpreted as pure chance, ie: 'There goes Gollum... it would have done Sauron some good if he'd installed guard rails in Sammath Naur.'

Religion doesn't define one's ability to enjoy LotR, and I think the same goes for geography too. I've never seen anywhere like the Shire with my own eyes (or hendu, for my fellow Quenya students ), but I can certainly imagine it. And there are other parts of Middle-earth that I can relate to familiar places. The Misty Mountains could easily be the Adirondacks; Fangorn is any dark and looming wood. I think everyone can associate something they know with somewhere (or even someone) in LotR. And, there are many ideas and ideals presented in LotR that are nearly universal: loyalty, friendship, courage, mercy, love. As long as people hold these as positive ideals, there will be appreciation for the book.

[Mister Underhill]

Here is an interesting article on a man who has gotten rich and famous from the huge royalties he earned from his Chinese translation of LotR, which sold over 600,000 copies following the release of FotR (the movie) in China. You can just cancel the prompt to install a Chinese language pack if you see it and still read the article, which is in English.

The Chinese arguably have a stronger point of identification with the Rohirrim than the average Englander, since they can count as ancestors the most fearsome horse-warrior culture in history. From what I can tell from popular Chinese cinema, the average Chinese has at least as much of a connection to LotR's themes of duty and honor as the typical modern Westerner, too.

Speaking of the movies, I wonder if they have forever biased an analysis of Tolkien's cross-cultural appeal. Who knows how Jackson's "visual translations" have affected -- or created -- audiences abroad?

A couple other quick points, as I always seem to be pressed for time these days:

There are too many factors in play to make any definitive judgment of Tolkien's potential appeal in some parts of the world. For instance, in Saudi Arabia, where people are still occasionally executed for the practice of witchcraft and it is illegal even to possess "polytheistic and superstitious books", and where the government tightly censors the books and even the web access available to its citizens, is it any surprise that there is no big Saudi Tolkien following? Can we rightly say that Tolkien has no "cross-cultural appeal" in such a climate? I guess it depends on how you define culture.

I must join other posters, particularly Novnarwen, in scoffing at the idea that the setting of Middle-earth is somehow so particularly English that the rest of us won't "get it". England doesn't have a corner on green hills or swift rivers or trees or even mist, davem, my friend. Are visitors to Sequoia National Park the only ones who may even have a chance to "get" Lothlórien? Have many primeval giant lava-spewing volcanoes in England, do you? How ever do you "get" Mordor? What's the English analog for Khazad-dûm of which we fur'n'ers are deprived? For Rivendell? It's silly. Middle-earth, while clearly inspired by English and other European landscapes, is not England. Anybody with even a little media exposure and a little imagination should have no trouble imagining Middle-earth, no matter where they hail from.