The Grace of Ilúvatar?

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

To judge by the fact that references of that nature are never to be seen in the post-Lost Tales era, I think we can say that that was an idea that Tolkien discarded...

Momentary aside: Perhaps he didn't discard it as much as adapt it. Moria, the Dead Marshes, Cirith Ungol, Minas Morgul, the Morannon, and the rest of Mordor don't strike me as heavenly, or hospitable, or even nice. Even Isengard goes through a rather hellish phase. I think the theme of a hellish place in which one would much rather not be detained shows up again and again.

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

but you didn't go there for being naughty, and they were destroyed a long time ago anyway

True. But Morgoth was banished from Arda-- for being both naughty and unrepentant. I doubt the place he was banished to was Nice.

Back to the regular topic...

[Frodo Baggins]

Yes but there is true repentance and false repentance. I do not believe Mortogh really repented and was truly sorry of what he did. When Manwe let him go he was still as nasty as before and didn't care one straw whether or not he was causing grief for everyone else. Morgoth, I believe, only said he was sorry to get out of the sticky situation the Valar put him in. To put it more simply, Morgoth was not sorry for what he had done, he was only sorry he got caught.

Those who are genuinely repentant and truly seek forgiveness, who stop what evil they are committing, are gladly given grace.

[Gurthang]

Originally posted by Frodo Baggins
Yes but there is true repentance and false repentance.

True, but the mind of Eru, who I think this question is referring to, sees the true intent behind a repentance. Meaning He really knows whether you're sorry or not and there is no way to fool Him.

Originally posted by burrahobbit
Oh you cad. You don't give it to somebody that is so naughty that they have refused every opportunity to repent their sinning ways.

I think he's got a point here. If a person refuses the grace that is being offered, can he receive it? I'd say no. The Noldor are a prime example. They forsook the 'grace' of living in Aman and left. At that point, the offer of 'grace' was withdrawn from them so that they could not come back, like Estelyn mentioned.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Mr. Underhill

But isn't "deserving of grace" a contradiction in terms? The very definition of grace is that it is not deserved, but is given as a mercy: "grace: 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification".

Yes, that's the point, unmerited being the keyword. I'll go along with noone being deserving per se. Rest, I'll agree with:

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

that they have refused every opportunity to repent their sinning ways

Deliberately omitting 'you don't give...' part of the sentence, seeing as it is unprovable in either direction. (1. No one knows mind of Eru as a whole 2. Eru is free at all times 3. Eru is merciful)

Eru