Does LotR have cross-cultural appeal?

[The Saucepan Man]

Some great responses. Thank you to all who have contributed.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I wonder if book sales info is available for various countries, both for English and translated forms.

I wondered that too, as I tend to agree that merely going by Barrow-Downs membership is unlikely to be the most accurate of indicators, given language issues. I tried Googling, but found little of use. Nevertheless, I do have a hunch that Tolkien’s works are more widely read in what might broadly be described as the “west” than elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

One point to be considered about the books is the quality of the translation into other languages. We have Tolkien's thoughts on various translations, but if the books aren't 'page turners' in a person's native language, they won't attract many readers.

A good point. Although the problems that have been referred to with, for example, the German translations do not seem to have affected its popularity in Germany. Then again, English is commonly spoken to a high standard in many parts of Germany and the same applies, I believe, with regard to the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries. And, while the same might be said of France and (to a lesser extent) Spain and Italy, I guess the “own language preference” point explains the lack of Downers from these countries.

I would expect the language barrier to be the greatest obstacle where an entirely different alphabet is used. That will certainly be an issue in most Islamic and Far Eastern countries. However, the Russian alphabet is unique and, as HI has indicated, Tolkien has (or at least had) quite a following in Russia, so I think that there is more to it than this. It seems to me that the culture of many parts of Russia and also many of the former soviet states (Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia for example) have much in common with Europe when it comes to matters such as mythology, history and faith. Moreso, for example, than countries like China or Saudi Arabia.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

But then, consider literacy rates elsewhere too. People in large parts of the foreign world simply don't have the chance to learn to read, yet alone read Tolkien.

Fair point, although I was more thinking in terms of those from different (ie non-“western”) cultures who are literate and who do have access, one way or another, to Tolkien’s works. Do the books hold as much appeal to them as they do for those from, or who are aqcuainted with, “western” cultures?

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Culture...

That is an interesting term.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I think we should probably consider nationality as well as ethnicity if we're going to be discussing the appeal Tolkien has.

I agree that “culture” is a difficult concept to define in this context. My Compact Oxford English Dictionary defines it as:

… the customs, institutions and achievements of a particular nation, people or group.

When considering the appeal of Tolkien to different cultures, it seems to me that we should focus on the belief system, history, mythology and traditions of those cultures. So, for example, the Rohirrim will seem rather familiar to those who are acquainted with pre-medieval European history. But would they seem as familiar to someone from China, or to an Australian Aborigine? Their history and cultural roots are not the same. Similarly, Goblins and Trolls are creatures from European mythology, albeit interpreted by Tolkien. Perhaps, through translation, the equivalent creatures from other mythologies may be co-opted into the story, but then will readers be seeing something different?

Of course, as a result of the migration of peoples that has taken place throughout history, cultures will transcend national boundaries and ethnicity, and will become blurred. Indeed, as davem points out, one of Tolkien’s stated intentions in writing LotR and his other works, was to provide a mythology for England which he felt to be lacking. But the mythological roots of the legendarium remain very much rooted in European tradition.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

But considering that ethnicity doesn't really affect anything about a person … I don't see any importance there.

Yes. I would agree with you there. Ethnicity, in terms of racial stock, is certainly not the same thing as culture and, while ethnic origin may be an indicator of culture, it is not in itself a factor in determining whether a book based upon a certain cultural tradition will have any particular appeal to a person. Ethnicity, therefore, is perhaps rather a red herring.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I was born into a Hindu family, but living in Britain I also have a firm knowledge of Christianity. I can only presume my love of Tolkien would still exist, were that not the case. I am an atheist, and I know LotR appeals to a lot of atheists and agnostics as well as to Christians and Jews.

I agree. I would describe myself as an agnostic, and this has not affected my appreciation of LotR. Indeed, until recently, I was unaware of Tolkien’s faith and did not pick up on the religious undertones in his works at all. Having said that, I am familiar with Christian ideals and so perhaps there was a degree of connection there, even though I did not appreciate it at the time.

Then again, the kinds of concepts which LotR espouses – its morality, if you like – are not exclusive to Christianity. Do these shared concepts appeal to those of other faiths, even though the “trappings” within which they are presented are Christian in origin?

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I know Japanese Tolkien addicts from other sites ...

I find that interesting, given that Japan has a very distinctive cultural tradition. What is it in Tolkien’s works, I wonder, that appeals to Japanese fans? Do they see it differently to “westerners”, ie as interpreted by reference to their own mythological and cultural traditions, or do they see it as a story based upon a different culture, but one which nonetheless contains messages with which they can identify? Difficult to generalise, I know. But it would be interesting to know how the book “translates” to different cultures (in the minds of readers, rather than on the page). Does the imagery of the films, while familiar to most European/North American fans, seem slightly alien to those from other cultural traditions?

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

So the story can be cast in different ways, according to the tenets of the culture. I'd think any story must gain and lose meanings in translation, though, for the very reason of cultural and expressive differences...

I tend to agree with that although, while the style of translation on the page may have a bearing, I do think that it is perhaps more a matter of translation in the mind of the reader.

Originally Posted by davem

I've always been slightly surprised that non-English readers even get the story, as its always seemed so very English to me. A pleasant surprise, of course, but odd, to me, nonetheless....

Originally Posted by davem

I meant that to me the settings - particularly the parts set in the Shire, & the Hobbits themselves seem so English that I've always been surprised that non-English readers can relate to them so deeply.

It does not surprise me that non-English readers can relate to the visual backdrop to the story since, while the Shire might be very much grounded in the English countryside, the plains of Rohan, the peaks of the Misty Mountains and the depths of Moria will be recognisable to those from many other countries. So, it is not so much the landscape of Middle-earth which I suspect may be unfamiliar to some readers from different cultures, but rather the depiction of its peoples and their traditions. From Hobbits to Dwarves, from Elves to Ents and from Gondorians to Rohirrim, their depiction is unambiguously European.

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

I ascribe to this very translation (it being the first as well) the popularity Tolkien has in Russia. It subsided of late, but there certainly was a phenomenon known as 'Tolkien craze', which burst out (and was mainly manned with young people - teenagers main part, but up to people in their 'late tweens') by the end of 80s, following publication of 'short version' translation of LoTR in 1982 and first full translation in 1988.

Thank you, HI, for your excellent description of the “Tolkien craze” in Russia. I would be interested to know whether it gained a greater following amongst the Slavic peoples of Russia than amongst those from the Muslim and other cultural traditions. Would you be able to shed any light on that? You indicate that the books have a following in Azerbaijan, which would suggests that it does have some following amongst Muslim peoples. But could the same be said with regard to Iran or Saudi Arabia, I wonder.

Further thoughts, anyone?

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by SpM

I would describe myself as an agnostic, and this has not affected my appreciation of LotR. Indeed, until recently, I was unaware of Tolkien’s faith and did not pick up on the religious undertones in his works at all. Having said that, I am familiar with Christian ideals and so perhaps there was a degree of connection there, even though I did not appreciate it at the time.

When I read, I tend to separate my mindset from that of the so-called real world without even realizing it. And not having a Christian view from the beginning, I never made any kind of connection in that sense. Of course, I read at the beginning of FotR that LotR is a "fundamentally Christian work," but that had little effect on my reading. I generally accept books as their own little contained worlds, just appreciating the stories in and of themselves, and it's not until I have read them several times over that I begin to make deeper sorts of connections. It was this forum that actually alerted me to the actual depth of LotR. But even knowing about the presence of this "applicability," it doesn't overwhelm me when I read; it usually doesn't cross my mind. The few exceptions are where there is supposed to be intervention from Eru, which I originally interpreted as pure chance, ie: 'There goes Gollum... it would have done Sauron some good if he'd installed guard rails in Sammath Naur.'

Religion doesn't define one's ability to enjoy LotR, and I think the same goes for geography too. I've never seen anywhere like the Shire with my own eyes (or hendu, for my fellow Quenya students ), but I can certainly imagine it. And there are other parts of Middle-earth that I can relate to familiar places. The Misty Mountains could easily be the Adirondacks; Fangorn is any dark and looming wood. I think everyone can associate something they know with somewhere (or even someone) in LotR. And, there are many ideas and ideals presented in LotR that are nearly universal: loyalty, friendship, courage, mercy, love. As long as people hold these as positive ideals, there will be appreciation for the book.

[Mister Underhill]

Here is an interesting article on a man who has gotten rich and famous from the huge royalties he earned from his Chinese translation of LotR, which sold over 600,000 copies following the release of FotR (the movie) in China. You can just cancel the prompt to install a Chinese language pack if you see it and still read the article, which is in English.

The Chinese arguably have a stronger point of identification with the Rohirrim than the average Englander, since they can count as ancestors the most fearsome horse-warrior culture in history. From what I can tell from popular Chinese cinema, the average Chinese has at least as much of a connection to LotR's themes of duty and honor as the typical modern Westerner, too.

Speaking of the movies, I wonder if they have forever biased an analysis of Tolkien's cross-cultural appeal. Who knows how Jackson's "visual translations" have affected -- or created -- audiences abroad?

A couple other quick points, as I always seem to be pressed for time these days:

There are too many factors in play to make any definitive judgment of Tolkien's potential appeal in some parts of the world. For instance, in Saudi Arabia, where people are still occasionally executed for the practice of witchcraft and it is illegal even to possess "polytheistic and superstitious books", and where the government tightly censors the books and even the web access available to its citizens, is it any surprise that there is no big Saudi Tolkien following? Can we rightly say that Tolkien has no "cross-cultural appeal" in such a climate? I guess it depends on how you define culture.

I must join other posters, particularly Novnarwen, in scoffing at the idea that the setting of Middle-earth is somehow so particularly English that the rest of us won't "get it". England doesn't have a corner on green hills or swift rivers or trees or even mist, davem, my friend. Are visitors to Sequoia National Park the only ones who may even have a chance to "get" Lothlórien? Have many primeval giant lava-spewing volcanoes in England, do you? How ever do you "get" Mordor? What's the English analog for Khazad-dûm of which we fur'n'ers are deprived? For Rivendell? It's silly. Middle-earth, while clearly inspired by English and other European landscapes, is not England. Anybody with even a little media exposure and a little imagination should have no trouble imagining Middle-earth, no matter where they hail from.

[Joy]

I would have to agree that people from other cultures would have no problem understanding the themes of LotR. Yes, the Asian culture is different that the Western/European, but they sitll have the theme of honor in battle (think of the Samuria warriors).

I am from the South US (Ga) to be exact. I have been to the mountians of Tn and N Ga. Maybe not as grand as the Rockies (which I have pictured for the Misties). I have been to the caves in Marrianna, Fla. I sometimes picture them as Aglarond.

I think we all have geography that we can picture as the places.

[Cailín]

I definitely agree with the statement that the members of this forum are not a true representation of the Lord of the Ring fans over the world. Most countries have perfectly adequate translations and therefore their own fandoms. For example, in the original Dutch translation Frodo Balings (Baggins) lives in the Gouw (Shire) and sets out to Mordor with Sam Gewissies, Merijn Brandebok en Pepijn Toek. It's not only the language barrier that keeps the nations with their own 'Tolkien-culture' away from the Downs - the world in which the story takes place might be entirely different (being both a native Dutch and English speaker - I have very different associations with something called the Shire than with the Gouw). But let's not get into that.

Though the concept of good vs. evil is universal, I do believe the Lord of the Rings appeals more to western nations and cultures than others. Tolkiens works are based on Germanic (and possibly Celtic) mythology - the heritage of the western world and easy for us to relate to. Now, people of a Romanic or Greek descent are still closer to the Germanic people than say - for example - African or Eastern-Asian people. Whenever I try to read African stories, I find myself confused, because their morals are so different and their humour seems very un-funny.

Also, let's say you grew up in a desert instead of the typical English landscapes of the Shire. Though I don't want to seem judgemental, it makes sense the desert people would make the desert the 'good' place and the forests and riverlands with which they are unfamiliar 'evil'.

Maybe what I am trying to say is this: Tolkiens works are widely read and enjoyed. But if we assume (another discussion) that it is the reader, not the author, who gives meaning to the text, people of a different culture might be reading an entirely different story than the majority of us.

~ Cailín

Note: It should not be forgotten that the Dutch and Germans have essentially less trouble understanding and translating English than any other country, for they are all Germanic languages and actually very much alike. The same would apply to French and English - since French influenced Modern English so heavily - but the French, as we all know, are far more protective of their own language.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

For myself, I was always surprised at the strong response Tolkien's work received from committed Christians as it has aways seemed to me to resonate more with pre-Christain culture and belief. It's been said before, but there is a distinct lack of churches, priests and rituals within Middle-earth. Those rituals which we do see are simple, such as Faramir's company looking to the West as a form of 'grace', and this could also signify something to do with honouring ancestors from Numenor.

Tolkien's work also reveres the landscape; those who work with it are considered to be 'good' while those who work against it are not. Creatuires such as the Ents are often compared with older cultures' ideas such as The Green Man and tree spirits, and though carvings of The Green Man are often seen in churches, this is most defintely a pre-Christian symbol. Tolkien seems to direct us towards reverence for all living creatures, including the living landscape rather than rverence of humans.

As one of those committed Christians I’d say that love of creation goes along with love of the creator. And the story resonates deeply with a reverence for the creator. The lack of ritual, aside from what we had with Numenor, is really rather a trivial thing. I suppose it all hinges on how you describe religion, and with was set of eyes you read the stories. But it seems that the way Tolkien writes the stories you can relate it to your own experience and values, whatever that maybe. Though it might turn out a very different story, if for instance you are of the post WWII Japanese mindset, or of Mongolian descent.

I have never quite understood how people can be drawn to the more sinister aspects of the story. Could it be that orc lovers love them out of pity? But then perhaps it is just the same with them, - another set of eyes far different than mine. I could be wrong of course, but it would seem that there are very many differing reasons why people love these books. And with the realization that there is such a diverse crowd on the Downs in relation to background and belief, I do think that it would appeal to a broader group if language/translations weren’t a barrier. Even if it is just a curiosity for someone of a vastly different culture, the stories are good. (Just as one can appreciate the Ramayana with out being Hindu and without necessarily getting the full impact.)

Which brings me to the point that I have noticed quite a few people from the Indian subcontinent on the Downs over the years. Three thoughts come to mind that may have some bearing on India being an exception, things touched upon earlier on, one being that there are many ‘English medium’ schools there, and another is that many of those schools are Catholic. Lastly, is that the English did leave a bit of their culture behind, architecturally and otherwise. It would be hard to say which (language, religion or familiarity) might provide more of a spark to potential Tolkien readers. But I think it is safe to hazard the guess that a good command of English is probably the greater catalyst there.

[Orofaniel]

SaucePan-

As far as I am aware, there are no Downers in China or in any strongly Islamic countries. Is this because the book has little appeal in these cultural traditions, or is this largely a function of language barriers? Does the book have any appeal to Hindus, Buddhists (and I know that there are a few Downers who at least have an interest in Buddhism) or among the indigenous people of the Americas and Australasia? Or does its really only appeal to those of the European and/or Judaeo-Christian tradition?

I think we should look at Tolkien's letters.

There are many theological themes underlying the narrative, the battle of good versus evil, the triumph of humility over pride, the activity of grace, Death and Immortality, Resurrection, Salvation, Repentance, Self-Sacrifice, Free Will, Humility, Justice, Fellowship, Authority and Healing. In it the great virtues of Mercy and Pity (shown by Bilbo and Frodo towards Gollum) win the day and the message from the Lord's Prayer "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" was very much on Tolkien's mind as Frodo struggled against the power of the One Ring (Letters, 181 and 191).

If you read this, I think you’ll see that the themes in Lord of the Rings aren't just of any great importance in Christianity, but also in many, if not all, religions. The basics in all religions are almost identical.( I have many examples, but I think I’ll leave it to you to figure out the resemblance between the world’s biggest religions. It really isn’t that difficult.)

So, even though Tolkien was catholic - and English- for that matter, I'm not surprised that the book appeals to members of other religions living in very different continents. I would only think it natural, since Lord of the Rings brings up the "basics" in Christianity. It is about good versus evil and more. It appeals to all of us, even though we have different beliefs. I actually find it a bit disturbing that one even can suggest that it wouldn’t appeal to people with different beliefs, because for me, there is such an obvious answer to it.

Perhaps there is a language barrier. But at the same time, perhaps people from non-English countries prefer to join Tolkien sites/froums in their own language. Or perhaps they don't feel like discussion books on the internet. Also, most people on the Barrowdowns are from England, USA, Australia & Europe. I guess it has something to do with the economical state in this world as well. Not a lot of people form the poor countries in Africa and Asia has the ability to be representative on this forum, due to, as I said, the economical situation. The Lord of the rings might not even be available certain territories, due to many reasons, something that has already mentioned. But it certainly doesn't mean that it wouldn't appeal to those people. I think it definitely would appeal to them, because they could relate too many of the themes in the book, as well as the atmosphere.

*


As for settings; wow. I'm amazed. What do we have books for? I certainly thought it was an excellent opportunity to create our own images and use our imagination.

Davem-

For instance, I've grown up in an area parts of which are still reminiscent of the Shire - ''woods, fields, little rivers' - so I've been able to wander in places which strongly reminded me of the books, & I've encountered people very like the Hobbits. So I have that connection with the books that people living in a different landscape wouldn't have.

I guess I'm lucky because I have seen a few hills during my life time - and a couple of rivers too. That way I can "relate" to LoTR more...is that what you think? Seriously, I don't think those images is that hard to imagine on our own. We are homo sapiens, the creatures with the highest IQs on this Eearth - I think. Hills, rivers, fields - that's a piece of cake. And so, I would say that your argument about your stronger connections with the books because you have seen/grown up in a "look-alike-LoTR-Landscape", is groundless. There is no right or wrong way to interpret scenery, or a book, in my opinion. (But perhaps some of us find it easier to interpret it because of their knowledge about what the writer is describing.) And I guess we all can feel the strongest connections to the book even though we don't have the same background as you do. I guess we've all felt like wandering the Shire every now and then, not necessarily just because of the scenery, but because of what seems to be a "Shire-like atmosphere". I even think small objects and/or buildings can give us a few hints what it would be like to live in the Shire.

I swear I’ve been in Mordor. I have. I swear it.