Does LotR have cross-cultural appeal?

[Cailín]

I definitely agree with the statement that the members of this forum are not a true representation of the Lord of the Ring fans over the world. Most countries have perfectly adequate translations and therefore their own fandoms. For example, in the original Dutch translation Frodo Balings (Baggins) lives in the Gouw (Shire) and sets out to Mordor with Sam Gewissies, Merijn Brandebok en Pepijn Toek. It's not only the language barrier that keeps the nations with their own 'Tolkien-culture' away from the Downs - the world in which the story takes place might be entirely different (being both a native Dutch and English speaker - I have very different associations with something called the Shire than with the Gouw). But let's not get into that.

Though the concept of good vs. evil is universal, I do believe the Lord of the Rings appeals more to western nations and cultures than others. Tolkiens works are based on Germanic (and possibly Celtic) mythology - the heritage of the western world and easy for us to relate to. Now, people of a Romanic or Greek descent are still closer to the Germanic people than say - for example - African or Eastern-Asian people. Whenever I try to read African stories, I find myself confused, because their morals are so different and their humour seems very un-funny.

Also, let's say you grew up in a desert instead of the typical English landscapes of the Shire. Though I don't want to seem judgemental, it makes sense the desert people would make the desert the 'good' place and the forests and riverlands with which they are unfamiliar 'evil'.

Maybe what I am trying to say is this: Tolkiens works are widely read and enjoyed. But if we assume (another discussion) that it is the reader, not the author, who gives meaning to the text, people of a different culture might be reading an entirely different story than the majority of us.

~ Cailín

Note: It should not be forgotten that the Dutch and Germans have essentially less trouble understanding and translating English than any other country, for they are all Germanic languages and actually very much alike. The same would apply to French and English - since French influenced Modern English so heavily - but the French, as we all know, are far more protective of their own language.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

For myself, I was always surprised at the strong response Tolkien's work received from committed Christians as it has aways seemed to me to resonate more with pre-Christain culture and belief. It's been said before, but there is a distinct lack of churches, priests and rituals within Middle-earth. Those rituals which we do see are simple, such as Faramir's company looking to the West as a form of 'grace', and this could also signify something to do with honouring ancestors from Numenor.

Tolkien's work also reveres the landscape; those who work with it are considered to be 'good' while those who work against it are not. Creatuires such as the Ents are often compared with older cultures' ideas such as The Green Man and tree spirits, and though carvings of The Green Man are often seen in churches, this is most defintely a pre-Christian symbol. Tolkien seems to direct us towards reverence for all living creatures, including the living landscape rather than rverence of humans.

As one of those committed Christians I’d say that love of creation goes along with love of the creator. And the story resonates deeply with a reverence for the creator. The lack of ritual, aside from what we had with Numenor, is really rather a trivial thing. I suppose it all hinges on how you describe religion, and with was set of eyes you read the stories. But it seems that the way Tolkien writes the stories you can relate it to your own experience and values, whatever that maybe. Though it might turn out a very different story, if for instance you are of the post WWII Japanese mindset, or of Mongolian descent.

I have never quite understood how people can be drawn to the more sinister aspects of the story. Could it be that orc lovers love them out of pity? But then perhaps it is just the same with them, - another set of eyes far different than mine. I could be wrong of course, but it would seem that there are very many differing reasons why people love these books. And with the realization that there is such a diverse crowd on the Downs in relation to background and belief, I do think that it would appeal to a broader group if language/translations weren’t a barrier. Even if it is just a curiosity for someone of a vastly different culture, the stories are good. (Just as one can appreciate the Ramayana with out being Hindu and without necessarily getting the full impact.)

Which brings me to the point that I have noticed quite a few people from the Indian subcontinent on the Downs over the years. Three thoughts come to mind that may have some bearing on India being an exception, things touched upon earlier on, one being that there are many ‘English medium’ schools there, and another is that many of those schools are Catholic. Lastly, is that the English did leave a bit of their culture behind, architecturally and otherwise. It would be hard to say which (language, religion or familiarity) might provide more of a spark to potential Tolkien readers. But I think it is safe to hazard the guess that a good command of English is probably the greater catalyst there.

[Orofaniel]

SaucePan-

As far as I am aware, there are no Downers in China or in any strongly Islamic countries. Is this because the book has little appeal in these cultural traditions, or is this largely a function of language barriers? Does the book have any appeal to Hindus, Buddhists (and I know that there are a few Downers who at least have an interest in Buddhism) or among the indigenous people of the Americas and Australasia? Or does its really only appeal to those of the European and/or Judaeo-Christian tradition?

I think we should look at Tolkien's letters.

There are many theological themes underlying the narrative, the battle of good versus evil, the triumph of humility over pride, the activity of grace, Death and Immortality, Resurrection, Salvation, Repentance, Self-Sacrifice, Free Will, Humility, Justice, Fellowship, Authority and Healing. In it the great virtues of Mercy and Pity (shown by Bilbo and Frodo towards Gollum) win the day and the message from the Lord's Prayer "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" was very much on Tolkien's mind as Frodo struggled against the power of the One Ring (Letters, 181 and 191).

If you read this, I think you’ll see that the themes in Lord of the Rings aren't just of any great importance in Christianity, but also in many, if not all, religions. The basics in all religions are almost identical.( I have many examples, but I think I’ll leave it to you to figure out the resemblance between the world’s biggest religions. It really isn’t that difficult.)

So, even though Tolkien was catholic - and English- for that matter, I'm not surprised that the book appeals to members of other religions living in very different continents. I would only think it natural, since Lord of the Rings brings up the "basics" in Christianity. It is about good versus evil and more. It appeals to all of us, even though we have different beliefs. I actually find it a bit disturbing that one even can suggest that it wouldn’t appeal to people with different beliefs, because for me, there is such an obvious answer to it.

Perhaps there is a language barrier. But at the same time, perhaps people from non-English countries prefer to join Tolkien sites/froums in their own language. Or perhaps they don't feel like discussion books on the internet. Also, most people on the Barrowdowns are from England, USA, Australia & Europe. I guess it has something to do with the economical state in this world as well. Not a lot of people form the poor countries in Africa and Asia has the ability to be representative on this forum, due to, as I said, the economical situation. The Lord of the rings might not even be available certain territories, due to many reasons, something that has already mentioned. But it certainly doesn't mean that it wouldn't appeal to those people. I think it definitely would appeal to them, because they could relate too many of the themes in the book, as well as the atmosphere.

*


As for settings; wow. I'm amazed. What do we have books for? I certainly thought it was an excellent opportunity to create our own images and use our imagination.

Davem-

For instance, I've grown up in an area parts of which are still reminiscent of the Shire - ''woods, fields, little rivers' - so I've been able to wander in places which strongly reminded me of the books, & I've encountered people very like the Hobbits. So I have that connection with the books that people living in a different landscape wouldn't have.

I guess I'm lucky because I have seen a few hills during my life time - and a couple of rivers too. That way I can "relate" to LoTR more...is that what you think? Seriously, I don't think those images is that hard to imagine on our own. We are homo sapiens, the creatures with the highest IQs on this Eearth - I think. Hills, rivers, fields - that's a piece of cake. And so, I would say that your argument about your stronger connections with the books because you have seen/grown up in a "look-alike-LoTR-Landscape", is groundless. There is no right or wrong way to interpret scenery, or a book, in my opinion. (But perhaps some of us find it easier to interpret it because of their knowledge about what the writer is describing.) And I guess we all can feel the strongest connections to the book even though we don't have the same background as you do. I guess we've all felt like wandering the Shire every now and then, not necessarily just because of the scenery, but because of what seems to be a "Shire-like atmosphere". I even think small objects and/or buildings can give us a few hints what it would be like to live in the Shire.

I swear I’ve been in Mordor. I have. I swear it.

[Bêthberry]

Perhaps this thread on Engrish subtitles suggests that there is a cultural divide to be crossed?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Shwoa! I hope the poor individuals don't base any opinions on that translation!

[Lalwendë]

First of all, like SpM and Encaitare, I never thought twice about any possible links to Christianity within the text, not for a long time. It was only after I had spoken to Christians who had read LotR that I began to notice how certain aspects might be found within. I wonder how many other people also fail to pick up on the Christian links? Now, thinking about the early fandom, in the late 60's, I also wonder how many of those people picked up on the Christianity? I know that Tolkien is loved by many people who for want of a better word fit into 'alternative' culture which is often non-Christian; I've lost count of how many ex-hippies, goths and greenies that I've met who love LotR.

After hearing what Ronald Hutton said about Tolkien's work, I'm even more convinced that Tolkien did not set out to write a Christian story, but that those elements were found in there afterwards. Hutton said that using the Letters as a basis for Tolkien's meaning can be risky. Why? Tolkien was a committed Christian (albeit one who seemed to lose faith during the 1920's) after LotR was published, and he was keen to appear so. In answering letters filled with difficult questions, he emphasised this fact, which is quite understandable. It doesn't alter the fact that there are non-Christian elements within the books.

Maybe many of those elements which remind us of our beliefs are universal and shared between faiths and often equally as well understood by those who do not have a faith. I don't think LotR could be claimed as a Christian book, instead it was a book written by a Christian which is different. In that respect it has a wider appeal, and looking at it in that way helps me to understand why I (and many many others) love it despite not being a committed Christian. Maybe there ought to be a thread questioning and examining if it is the kind of text it is sometimes deemed to be?

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by SpM

would be interested to know whether it gained a greater following amongst the Slavic peoples of Russia than amongst those from the Muslim and other cultural traditions

I have no exact data of figures, but my impression is that yes, Tolkien gained greater following with Slavic peoples. Muslims I mention in my previous seemed more like an exeption to me, still more both persons I had in mind are well-acquainted with Russian cultural environment.

But, again, I have no statistics to lean on, justs impressions

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I don't think LotR could be claimed as a Christian book, instead it was a book written by a Christian which is different.

I couldn't agree more. But I do think that there are a few things that Catholics at least will pick up on, that the rest of us may not. Whether Tolkien intended them too is another matter, entirely.