M-m-meaning! Let's define, is it 'meaning' or 'Meaning', or if there's any at all...

[Kitanna]

I think most of them can hold the meaning. (except for maybe the ones about consenus). That is why I cast my vote in for all of the above.

[the guy who be short]

What's a "real" meaning anyway? Aren't all meanings as valid as one another...?

[HerenIstarion]

Hard question, TGWBS, hard. (Or do I hear hint of dissappointement here?)

Sure, you've noticed - I've put commas round 'real meaning' up there.

In this case, though, 'real meaning' is what 'real meaning' is for you. And you too. And hey there, don't sidewalk like this, it means you too!

There is no means (heh) of pinning aforesaid 'real meaning' by its tail (in case it has any), for the very diversity of personal opinion. In matters as such, luckily, democracy haven't won and 'majority says so, true be it' is not yet the issue.

The 'real meaning' behind this poll issue (as far as I may answer for mark, who's the author) is curiosity - who thinks what and why (presumably, we already know that, or may make educated guesses about it, following longuish discussions in numerous C-threads, enchantment-breadking topics and ART Slapdowns) but: A. list is extended here (so to imclude as many shades of definition as possible) B. it is fun to see it all expressed in numbers. C. Another angle of 'for the fun of it' - presumably, we'll see some interesing clashes (hush, I won't tell names)

If I missed anything, mark will stand in for me. I have to go - got to sharpen my teeth before coming back here tomorrow


EDIT: yes, Firefoot, but it does not matter that much, as we all are readers, and are placed in similar positions. Besides, the poll tries to find out how you read the book, and if in finding that out we asked for 'reader's opinion', it does not follow the reader who's opinion we inquired upon, when reading, gave preference to it over something else. Where the preferences lie, is what the poll is after. Again, mark may add something
END OF EDIT

[Firefoot]

H-I - Yes, I know, and I've been thinking about the question in a more serious manner. I just haven't quite decided on my vote yet, and in the meantime... I couldn't resist. I'll let you all know when I decide what I think for real.

[wilwarin538]

I think the 'meaning' of any book is just what influenced the reader or how it made the reader feel. An author can write a book with a certain 'meaning' in mind but the readers might interpret the 'meaning' deferently.

For example:

The author could write the following sentance: Johnny killed Bob and then went to jail.

The auther's 'meaning' in writing that sentance: Killing is bad.

Reader #1's 'meaning' after reading the sentance(am I spelling that right?): COOL!!!

Reader #2's: I'm sure he had a good reason.

Reader #3's: Obviously he didn't do a good job of hiding the evidence.

I know, that is a terrible example. But I'm sure you get my point. A story can have many 'real meanings' to it. Am I way of track with the 'meaning' to this question???

[alatar]

Though I've commented in the various canonicity threads, don't think that I've actually ever voted, and so will have to leave this poll unvoted too - for some consistancy in my life .

Meaning or meaning, presumably meaning implied or explicit significance or worthwhile or important quality, the answer is going to involve the reader/observer somewhere. What exactly is the significance of Tolkien's works? What makes them rise above the noise?

Even when I can get my brain to stay with one point of view for a moment and to agree on a meaning, this still is only temporary as it encompasses what I'm feeling/thinking/experiencing at that minute in time. In brief, it's all relative.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by H-I

In this case, though, 'real meaning' is what 'real meaning' is for you.

But in that case, why is The Author's Intent a category? Because if we want to say that the Author dictates the meaning of the text then the 'real meaning' to us as readers is irrelevant, as there can only be one 'real meaning'.

As you have seen before, I do like to pick holes and am now picking on the opposite side to where I picked before, so you may feel free not to rise to the bait.

First of all, before I say how we can search for it, I want to know what this meaning actually is. Is there a meaning to LotR at all? Does it have a message or (more acceptable to our modern tastes than didactic messages) a theme? If I knew what the meaning was, then I might be able to say where it was that I found it.

I want to vote all of the above, but I have to have my two penn'orth first. The idea that the meaning could be found in Mainstream or even 'Downs reader consensus is scary! That doesn't allow for rejecting or challenging mainstream opinion, and is a little bit stagnant and restrictive. If this was where meaning was to be found then I should want to shake things up a bit and say something outrageous. Though I can't deny that for some readers, this is exactly where they will find their meaning! It could be directed by fellow forum members, and by a need to 'belong' by saying the right thing, or it could go wider than this. Having spent several days at lectures, I have seen the level of following that certain critics attract and am suspicious that they could get away with saying just about anything for some readers. That's the old cynic in me speaking, and I'm very protective of that little voice.

That it does not even have to have a meaning is also true - many people read LotR just because it's enjoyable, and I like to dip in now and then just to enjoy the shape and sound of the words, to be taken along for the ride. What's the saying? "Man cannot live on bread alone"? I don't like to ruin the books by always just analysing them in a schoolroom manner. This way of reading is actually very close to finding a 'divine truth' as it leaves the reader open to experiencing the joy of the text. Though that gets close to davem's baggage idea.

I'll stick with 'all of the above' for now and refuse to get off the fence.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Bb

Those punctuation marks are called apostrophes

Indeed... who would have thought? They really look the same, just those 'trophy' thingies are commas who won something, on account of being placed on top as they are...

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But in that case, why is The Author's Intent a category? Because if we want to say that the Author dictates the meaning of the text then the 'real meaning' to us as readers is irrelevant, as there can only be one 'real meaning' ... so you may feel free not to rise to the bait

This forum is full of sophists! How could I resist, what with my teeth already sharpened and all?

Authorial Intent is a category, cause, though Author may dictate the meaning, it is the freedom of the Reader to land an ear to said dictation. In which case, it is a consequence of a deliberate and conscious choice on behalf of the Reader, and therefore, falls under the same rules as others.

Of course, Reader who made such a choice (or any other choice) may feel the Truth on his/her side, yet it is unprovable that it is indeed so.

See my vote up there. It is the Truth (for me, and yes, with capital T), but unless you (him, her, them, the bird, the plane and the Superman) freely make the same choice, you won't share it with me. Whatever arguments I may put forward, there always may be found counter arguments, and we'll have a draw, i.e., will go on brandishing flags with big T's embroidered in golden thread on them, or leave it at that and have each his/her own.

We may alter our opinions, of course, but than it will mean the shift of choice, and, consequently, the shift of 'real meaning' (i.e. what it means to me/you/them personally)

I may seem pouring water on Reader's Opinion supporters mill again, but: above was about the Reader's choice concerning his/her approach before the start of actual Reading, not the attitude during the Reading itself.

Feel the Force, young Padawan, see if it is Light or Dark way you feel it, that is your preliminary choice, and than act upon it

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

If I knew what the meaning was, then I might be able to say where it was that I found it

Vote for the new poll: what is the meaning. But be afraid, be very afraid of Aiwendil seeing it. I won't tell you why, you'll know when (if) he replies...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Sure, you've noticed - I've put commas round 'real meaning' up there.

Psst. HI. Those punctuation marks are called apostrophes when one is used ('. . .') ; quotation marks when two are used (". . ."). The commas look like this: , , , ,.

Also, you are as tricksome as Fordim, using 'real' to demark 'meaning.'

[Firefoot]

You know what the inherent problem in this question is? It's that if you vote at all, you are expressing your (the Reader's) opinion on where the meaning is found. So no matter which choice you pick, you are also picking choice B by default because even if you vote for the author's intention, that's still the Reader's individual opinion.