3 + 9, x (7+12) Divided by Eleventy-one... oh dear

[AbercrombieOfRohan]

Don't forget the number 33, which is the hobbits coming of age, but was also the age of Jesus was when he was crucified.

I don't think 33 is used anywhere else, but correct me if I'm wrong...

[the guy who be short]

Beth - All I know (and, regarding religion, that's not a lot) is that Seven appears a lot in the Bible. There are 7 churches, 7 Spirits, 7 stars, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials, 7 personages, 7 dooms, and 7 new things - apparently in the Book of Revelation alone. To give numbers, its used more than 700 times in the Bible and 54 times in the Book of Revelation. It's also used more than any other number in the Bible other than One. 7 Days of Creation, 7th Day of Sabbath, 7 Weeks between Passover and Pentecost, 7 Day Feasts, Every 7th year the farms left fallow, Every 49th year a year of Jubilee...

I'm no expert, but one would presume all these references to 7 are connected and have some significance.

Apparently, Seven is a sign of completeness as it merges "the perfect world number, 4 and the perfect divine number, 3." Four represents "the four square Earth" [the four compass points? ), and Three the Trinity, so that Seven represents the union of Earth and Heaven, and thus completeness.

Disclaimer: I don't believe the above! Though I guess it makes as much sense as anything else, and I do think that all those Biblical 7s must have some meaning behind them. 7 could simply signify completion because God seems to favour it so much.

In any case, accepting the Biblical 7 to be a number of completeness... why did Tolkien seem to pervert this? As I've mentioned above, the 7s in Tolkien seem to fall or be partially corrupted.

In the Case of the Valar, the Valier and the Stars, 7 probably does reflect completeness and divine favour though. As davem said, the Numenoreans picked up on this too - 7 circles, 7 day week, harmony with God.

Consciously Christian in the revision, eh?

[Bêthberry]

Sorry, I missed seeing these replies yesterday.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

I don't suppose these websites explained just how 'god' made clear his preference, did they?

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Beth - All I know (and, regarding religion, that's not a lot) is that Seven appears a lot in the Bible. There are 7 churches, 7 Spirits, 7 stars, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials, 7 personages, 7 dooms, and 7 new things - apparently in the Book of Revelation alone. To give numbers, its used more than 700 times in the Bible and 54 times in the Book of Revelation. It's also used more than any other number in the Bible other than One. 7 Days of Creation, 7th Day of Sabbath, 7 Weeks between Passover and Pentecost, 7 Day Feasts, Every 7th year the farms left fallow, Every 49th year a year of Jubilee...

I'm no expert, but one would presume all these references to 7 are connected and have some significance.

Apparently, Seven is a sign of completeness as it merges "the perfect world number, 4 and the perfect divine number, 3." Four represents "the four square Earth" [the four compass points? ), and Three the Trinity, so that Seven represents the union of Earth and Heaven, and thus completeness.

Originally Posted by Helen

Some people have lots of fun counting how many times seven is used in various works considered sacred.

Regarding the Christian bible, seven does show up quite a bit. (I haven't counted.) Revelation in particular is 7-heavy.

In the Old Testament twelve is a very popular number, but Tolkien didn't seem too taken up with that one.

Ah, so it's the reader who counts the references and makes the deduction, then. No direct Authorial statement to the effect, "And remember the seventh number to keep it holy," ?

[davem]

Originally Posted by TGWBS

But the significance would probably have a source in the Primary World, wouldn't it? Would Tolkien just pick a few numbers at random to be favoured in his world? I'd argue that he would have been influenced subconsciously, at the least, by the Primary world, and particularly from the two main influences of LotR - Religion and Myth.

Quite possibly, but if we have to seek the 'meaning' outside the secondary world it means Tolkien has failed to produce a secondary reality that can stand on its own two feet & needs support from outside.

[Shelob]

...if we have to seek the 'meaning' outside the secondary world... ~Davem

I'm not sure we're really looking for 'meaning' here...we're looking for similarities, possible sources where Tolkien could have tried to draw parallels between his world and ours. If we go about looking for the meaning outside the books themselves we're going to get cases like TGWBS got with 3, some/most book-examples will fit the outside meaning but a few won't...and those few will sit there stewing and gnawing at the back of our minds.

To get a meaning for any of these numbers we'd have to look at Tolkien's likely sources and pick out elements which could be worked into the books while at the same time looking just at where the numbers appear in the books and what patterns, unrelated to anything outside the books, crop up within their uses.

[littlemanpoet]

Sorry if I'm repeating somebody because I've only read the first half of the posts, but on why Tolkien would "pervert" the number seven....

That's a strange way to word it. But anyway, six is considered by many christians to be the number of IMperfection. Maybe Jews too, but I don't know about that. So 7 is perfect, and the failure or fall of something that started out at 7, well, just fits. It starts out perfect, and gets ruined or falls into disrepair or is stolen by
Sauron, what have you.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

But anyway, six is considered by many christians to be the number of IMperfection. Maybe Jews too, but I don't know about that. So 7 is perfect, and the failure or fall of something that started out at 7, well, just fits.

So why aren't there six deadly sins, rather than seven?