Jackson Purists Deplore Tolkien Changes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 08-23-2005, 05:01 AM

I was shocked by the ending. If there is one slight weakness in Jackson's work it is that the story is not wrapped up quickly enough. Tolkien, rather inexplicably, makes things worse. For those of you unfamiliar with Tolkien's version he chooses to introduce a very large section at the end of his book called 'The Scouring of the Shire'. In this he invents some convoluted nonsense about trouble in the Shire, even after Sauron was defeated. What's up with that!!!

That's not the best bit though. Get this: Saruman is the one causing the trouble! Remember Saruman? That guy killed at Isengard before the battle on the Pelennor? He's right there in the Shire! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!

Other than that, J's version is pretty decent. It's probably worth a read.

**The Saucepan Man** · 08-23-2005, 05:36 AM

To my mind, Tolkien's greatest failure is to omit any reference to Legolas as the hot Elf dude that he really is. He doesn't even describe Orl - er - I mean Legolas' hair colour! What's that all about!!??

And at one point, I think it's the bit about the big burning demon dude with the wings, he has Legolas wailing "Ai! Ai!" like a little girlie. Most uncool. This is not the amazingly good-looking guy with the never-ending supply of arrows and the cool stunts that we see in the films. I mean, why on earth did Tolkien leave out the shield-surfing and the Oliphaunt climbing? They were some of the best bits of the film. Instead Tolkien has him singing about some stream or chick or something and droning on about the nature of time and such stuff, rather than explaining some of the finer points of the plot. If I hadn't seen the films before I read this sub-standard adaptation, I would have, like, totally missed that the bit before the gates of the bad guy's land was supposed to be a diversion.

It's such a shame that Tolkien missed the point of Legolas' character completely ...

Oddwen · 08-23-2005, 06:39 AM

And what's worse, this "Tolkien" fellow left out most of the angst of...get this -

Aragorn.

I mean, in the movie, he is of course reluctant to claim his bloodright (as well should be) or to accept the wrongdoings of his evil ancestor.

Not so in the book. "Nobility" is a codeword here, "Heir of Isildur" is another. And save for a moment of doubt before setting out from the hill (names given in the book as "Parth Galen" and "Amon Hen"), he is confident and even eager to claim his kingship, which Tolkien seems to think he deserves and is even worthy of.

I can't even begin to tell you how many levels this is wrong at.

And the way Tolkien treats love - never is there any doubt in this impostor Aragorn's mind to choose between Arwen and Eowyn! No possible room for NC-17 fanfics! Think of the fanfic writers just getting started into the world of writing, Tolkien, now they have no opportunity to shine!

And as well, little to no contact between Aragorn and Arwen, merely a moment of speech while her father is present.

??? You'd think if they were in love, they'd be all over each other, but not so in this adaptation. C'mon, let's get realistic here. This is the 21st century, nobody involves their parents anymore.

And at the paths of the Dead, Tolkien screwed up badly. He took a scene which worked well, and totally took the suspense and excitement out of it.

Instead of just Legolas and Gimli going through, (which are enough to keep track of, thank you) Aragorn took thirty or so of his relatives (who pop up only for this scene!) and also a couple superfluous elves, whom Tolkien disguised as the sons of Elrond. Makes you wonder which of Tolkien's relatives he inserted, hmm?

There is never a moment of doubt with the Dead either - Aragorn commands them, and they go. WHAT?? If an RPG writer were to introduce this, it would be called "godmodding", but if Tolkien can do it, it's okay?

And not a skull to be seen in the book! Merely a skeleton of an ancient Rohan king, which was a distraction and an unneeded side plot.
The Dead could be anything in Jackson's works - cannibals, criminals, yet in Tolkien's words, they merely broke a promise to come to war.

Well, maybe they changed their minds folks, perhaps they didn't believe in war as a solution! Here only is Isildur presented as evil, in the rest of the book he is shown as merely foolish or headstrong.

In the end, I could not get past the wedding of the King. It was reduced to merely a paragraph, and was months after the coronation! I finally was so angered that I threw the book down and pulled out my DVDs.

Ah well. At least I can watch and forget.

Thanks E&E for bringing this to our attention!

(No, I'm not bitter at all!)

Estelyn Telcontar · 08-23-2005, 06:51 AM

Well, and what about the "Mouth of Sauron"? Tolkien makes him an ambassador softie, and robs Aragorn of his chance to give him what he deserves!

Gandalf too - instead of being a bad-*** wizard, he's all talk - he doesn't even give Denethor that decisive push in the right direction! And Denethor's death is way too tame without the jump off the cliff.

Oh, and whatever happened to Lurtz? Tolkien just completely left him out of the book!!

**The Saucepan Man** · 08-23-2005, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddwen

It was reduced to merely a paragraph, and was months after the coronation! I finally was so angered that I threw the book down and pulled out my DVDs.

Well at least we still have the films. Tolkien's travesty of a book has not changed that.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 08-23-2005, 07:32 AM

Tolkien's butchery of the film was nothing compared to the violence enacted by Jackson on the original computer game. It's almost as though he never played the game before turning it into a movie! Grrrrr.....

Bêthberry · 08-23-2005, 07:45 AM

What I was surprised with was the reactionary nature of some of Tolkien's changes. I mean, he put Arwen back in the sewing room, giving her little to do other than sewing that banner and looking beautiful. Isn't this Tolkien aware of just how horrible the sweatshops are in the thread trade?

Tolkien missed out, too, on using Arwen's finest line. Surely given how much he depicts her simply as a reward he ought to have maintained some fidelity to Jackson and at some point had Arwen say to Aragorn, "If you want me, come and get me."

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 08-23-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

he put Arwen back in the sewing room, giving her little to do other than sewing that banner and looking beautiful.

Yeah, I think this Tolkien dude is some sexist weirdo! He made a random Elf bloke steal Arwen's part at Bruinen!!! Besides, he forgot to put the Lothlorien Elves to Helm's Deep. I mean, come on, the Rohan guys wouldn't have ever survived without the Elf army!

And where's the drinking game between Legolas and Gimli! It was the best part in the movie and Tolkien left it out!

Ah, this is so annoying. Why didn't Tolkien just stay true to PJ's original masterpiece? He couldn't even get such a simple thing right as Faramir's hair colour! This Tolkien probably got the writing job only with a false resume!

08-23-2005, 05:01 AM	#1
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I was shocked by the ending. If there is one slight weakness in Jackson's work it is that the story is not wrapped up quickly enough. Tolkien, rather inexplicably, makes things worse. For those of you unfamiliar with Tolkien's version he chooses to introduce a very large section at the end of his book called 'The Scouring of the Shire'. In this he invents some convoluted nonsense about trouble in the Shire, even after Sauron was defeated. What's up with that!!! That's not the best bit though. Get this: Saruman is the one causing the trouble! Remember Saruman? That guy killed at Isengard before the battle on the Pelennor? He's right there in the Shire! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!! Other than that, J's version is pretty decent. It's probably worth a read. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond Last edited by Eomer of the Rohirrim; 12-15-2006 at 07:26 AM. Reason: spelling

08-23-2005, 05:36 AM	#2
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	To my mind, Tolkien's greatest failure is to omit any reference to Legolas as the hot Elf dude that he really is. He doesn't even describe Orl - er - I mean Legolas' hair colour! What's that all about!!?? And at one point, I think it's the bit about the big burning demon dude with the wings, he has Legolas wailing "Ai! Ai!" like a little girlie. Most uncool. This is not the amazingly good-looking guy with the never-ending supply of arrows and the cool stunts that we see in the films. I mean, why on earth did Tolkien leave out the shield-surfing and the Oliphaunt climbing? They were some of the best bits of the film. Instead Tolkien has him singing about some stream or chick or something and droning on about the nature of time and such stuff, rather than explaining some of the finer points of the plot. If I hadn't seen the films before I read this sub-standard adaptation, I would have, like, totally missed that the bit before the gates of the bad guy's land was supposed to be a diversion. It's such a shame that Tolkien missed the point of Legolas' character completely ... __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

08-23-2005, 06:39 AM	#3
Oddwen Drummer in the Deep Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Next Sunday A.D. Posts: 2,145	And what's worse, this "Tolkien" fellow left out most of the angst of...get this - Aragorn. I mean, in the movie, he is of course reluctant to claim his bloodright (as well should be) or to accept the wrongdoings of his evil ancestor. Not so in the book. "Nobility" is a codeword here, "Heir of Isildur" is another. And save for a moment of doubt before setting out from the hill (names given in the book as "Parth Galen" and "Amon Hen"), he is confident and even eager to claim his kingship, which Tolkien seems to think he deserves and is even worthy of. I can't even begin to tell you how many levels this is wrong at. And the way Tolkien treats love - never is there any doubt in this impostor Aragorn's mind to choose between Arwen and Eowyn! No possible room for NC-17 fanfics! Think of the fanfic writers just getting started into the world of writing, Tolkien, now they have no opportunity to shine! And as well, little to no contact between Aragorn and Arwen, merely a moment of speech while her father is present. ??? You'd think if they were in love, they'd be all over each other, but not so in this adaptation. C'mon, let's get realistic here. This is the 21st century, nobody involves their parents anymore. And at the paths of the Dead, Tolkien screwed up badly. He took a scene which worked well, and totally took the suspense and excitement out of it. Instead of just Legolas and Gimli going through, (which are enough to keep track of, thank you) Aragorn took thirty or so of his relatives (who pop up only for this scene!) and also a couple superfluous elves, whom Tolkien disguised as the sons of Elrond. Makes you wonder which of Tolkien's relatives he inserted, hmm? There is never a moment of doubt with the Dead either - Aragorn commands them, and they go. WHAT?? If an RPG writer were to introduce this, it would be called "godmodding", but if Tolkien can do it, it's okay? And not a skull to be seen in the book! Merely a skeleton of an ancient Rohan king, which was a distraction and an unneeded side plot. The Dead could be anything in Jackson's works - cannibals, criminals, yet in Tolkien's words, they merely broke a promise to come to war. Well, maybe they changed their minds folks, perhaps they didn't believe in war as a solution! Here only is Isildur presented as evil, in the rest of the book he is shown as merely foolish or headstrong. In the end, I could not get past the wedding of the King. It was reduced to merely a paragraph, and was months after the coronation! I finally was so angered that I threw the book down and pulled out my DVDs. Ah well. At least I can watch and forget. Thanks E&E for bringing this to our attention! (No, I'm not bitter at all!) __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before I listen for returning feet and voices at the door

08-23-2005, 06:51 AM	#4
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Well, and what about the "Mouth of Sauron"? Tolkien makes him an ambassador softie, and robs Aragorn of his chance to give him what he deserves! Gandalf too - instead of being a bad-*** wizard, he's all talk - he doesn't even give Denethor that decisive push in the right direction! And Denethor's death is way too tame without the jump off the cliff. Oh, and whatever happened to Lurtz? Tolkien just completely left him out of the book!! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 08-23-2005 at 06:55 AM.

08-23-2005, 07:32 AM	#6
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Tolkien's butchery of the film was nothing compared to the violence enacted by Jackson on the original computer game. It's almost as though he never played the game before turning it into a movie! Grrrrr..... __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

08-23-2005, 07:45 AM	#7
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	What I was surprised with was the reactionary nature of some of Tolkien's changes. I mean, he put Arwen back in the sewing room, giving her little to do other than sewing that banner and looking beautiful. Isn't this Tolkien aware of just how horrible the sweatshops are in the thread trade? Tolkien missed out, too, on using Arwen's finest line. Surely given how much he depicts her simply as a reward he ought to have maintained some fidelity to Jackson and at some point had Arwen say to Aragorn, "If you want me, come and get me." __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

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