Who would have fallen?

[Lyta_Underhill]

How come Pippin always seems to be regarded as having less love for Frodo than Merry? Is it his "lighter" nature?

I think this impression might come from the fact that Pippin CAN throw away a treasure at need, and he seems less attached to the things of the world, more Gandalf-like in that respect. Merry is constantly pulled back to Earth and admonishes himself ("Frodo and Sam! I am forgetting them!) and it pulls him back to his cares and his worry. He is depressed when Pippin is not there, and seems to need others around him, whereas Pippin treads lightly upon Middle Earth, one of the aspects of his personality I've tried to emulate, except where it creates conflicts with the more sensitive members of the world. It is a skill that works only when it is finely honed, and without this honing, it comes off as foolishness and mindlessness, perhaps childishness even! It is another question whether the Ring would have gotten Pippin before he could "grow up," but he does seem vulnerable to the unexplained drawing power of unseen forces, viz. the Palantir incident. So he probably would have tried it, but only if it had been in proximity to him.

I see Pippin in the same light. He would not mean harm, nor would he seek power. I would agree that he might even be deaf to the call. My assertion has been that if the Ring were in reach, Pippin would try it on just to see what would happen/what it would do. I would posit the same would happen if he saw Frodo's star glass, Gandalf's staff, Boromir's horn, etc.

Too true, except I don't think the 'call' would take an earthly form, as it did for Boromir, as it might for Aragorn, or even as it did in the end for Frodo. Pippin wishes to know the otherworldly, the names of things, all the stars in the sky, the lands of the world, etc. etc.,. I think his desire is much like Gandalf's desire to have looked into the Palantir and seen the hands of Fëanor at work long ago, a desire for knowledge. But the Ring would have merely given him grandiose notions. And then, like Sam, he would have realized he isn't big enough for grandiose notions and taken it off like a good Hobbit!

On a last note, I think I would have thrown the book against the wall and stomped on it if Pippin fell to the Ring. I'm glad this is only hypothetical!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Stunned, yes, I am stunned that Aragorn and Pippin are garnering so many votes, when the most likely to have succumbed is clearly ++GANDALF.

My reasoning? Each and every time someone is tempted to seize the Ring it is with the express purpose of using it to confront Sauron and to raise him or herself above the Enemy: Boromir wishes to become a great captain and lead an army against Mordor; Galadriel will become the Dark Queen; Sam dreams of throwing down the Dark Tower; even Gollum dreams of being Gollum the Great and eating fish every day.

What prevents Frodo from succumbing for so long is his ability to set aside that desire to confront evil in this mano y mano model of combative, militaristic heroism (that Boromir personifies). Instead, he clings to his love of and for other people: his duty, as he understands it, is to protect the Shire. Sam, Merry and Pippin see their duty as being to protect Frodo; Aragorn’s duty is to return to Gondor and save it; and Legolas and Gimli share the duty of the Halflings (to aid Frodo) but increasingly to each other in their remarkable friendship. The point of the Quest is to destroy the Ring and to this they are all dedicated – it’s only when people move away from this goal and embrace a more combative one (attack Sauron directly) that they run into trouble.

And this is where I come to Gandalf. His sole and only purpose in being sent to M-E is to combat Sauron: not directly, to be sure, but he has been placed there as the opponent to the Enemy. Unlike the hobbits – who are there to save the Shire – or Aragorn – who is there to win Arwen (by saving Gondor) – or Legolas and Gimli – who are there to save the Greenwood and the Mountain, and to forge a new bond between both – Gandalf is in M-E to defeat Sauron.

The lure of the Ring (“Take me, and you can destroy Sauron”) would find its readiest ear in the Wizard…don’t forget, it’s already corrupted one White Wizard…

(Why do you think that when Gandalf returned he made sure that he went west toward Aragorn, or -- more precisely -- away from Frodo, when he could have just as easily gone into Mordor to help the Ringbearer? I suspect that deep down, or even not so deep down, he knew that he was the greatest threat to Frodo.)

[Son of Númenor]

Most of your argument for Gandalf being the first to crack could be used, with minor tweaking, for Aragorn.

Each and every time someone is tempted to seize the Ring it is with the express purpose of using it to confront Sauron and to raise him or herself above the Enemy: Boromir wishes to become a great captain and lead an army against Mordor; Galadriel will become the Dark Queen; Sam dreams of throwing down the Dark Tower; even Gollum dreams of being Gollum the Great and eating fish every day.

Why would Aragorn be less likely than Gandalf to be tempted to seize it for the purpose of defeating Sauron? If anything he probably felt a greater pressure than Gandalf to save Gondor and the people of Middle-earth, given his bloodline.

The lure of the Ring (“Take me, and you can destroy Sauron”) would find its readiest ear in the Wizard…don’t forget, it’s already corrupted one White Wizard…

It also caused Boromir to assail Frodo, and Isildur was unable to give it up of his own accord.

Gandalf would succumb to the Ring eventually, perhaps before most other members of the Fellowship - but not before Aragorn. The two have similar objectives, but there are major differences. Aragorn is a Man, a Man of noble breeding but of a fallen race all the same. His desire to reclaim the throne of Gondor and usher in an era of peace would magnify the Ring's effect on him. While Gandalf's mission - and great desire - is likewise to defeat Sauron and make way for a peaceful Fourth Age, he is not bound to this quest in the same way as Aragorn is. He can return to immortal lands if Middle-earth falls to Sauron.

Edit: Cross-posted with Glirdan

[HerenIstarion]

I wish there were an entry for 'no one'

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

I wish there were an entry for 'no one'

Again, I will point out that one of the choices is Frodo who, as I recall, did finally succumb to the Ring...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Sorry Sono, but I don’t buy your rebuttal. Aragorn’s primary goal was not to defeat Sauron but to become worthy of Arwen by saving Gondor, and to thus reunite the bloodlines of the Half-Elven. His historical/mythic purpose – his Duty – is to procreate, not to destroy.

Not so Gandalf: he is entirely sexless and wholly devoted to the combative overthrow of Sauron. In this regard he is like Boromir – can you imagine Boro ever settling down with a nice girl from Rohan in the greenwoods of Ithilien? Nuh-uh. The same is true for Gandalf – he’s not going to be doing anything after the War. One way or another, his purpose is fulfilled; his job is finished with its conclusion.

So while I agree that the Ring would have corrupted Aragorn in time (terrible thought) I still don’t think he would have succumbed before Gandalf. The Wizard was thinking at every point, “How can I defeat Sauron?” and to that the Ring gives a ready answer; Aragorn was thinking at every point, “How can I save Gondor and thus marry Arwen?” – the Ring would have found a way to deceive him into thinking he could have that, but it would take much longer insofar as it’s hard to see how Aragorn could be fooled into thinking that seizing the Ring would give him Arwen until he was completely corrupted. Gandalf, on the other hand, was already pretty desperate to defeat Sauron: so desperate that he conceived of the hare-brained idea of sending the Ring into Mordor in the care of a Halfing!

[alatar]

I cannot stand by and watch the good name of Gandalf besmirched. With all of the talk about Gandalf taking or succumbing to the Ring, you are dragging this character through the mud. I just can't believe what I'm reading...why don't you just break his staff and lay him prone before some lesser being...like the Witch-King or something...wait...didn't someone already do that?!?

Anyway, I would argue that Gandalf would have resisted the Ring longer than any. This noble soul was offered this very Ring, yet turned it down freely - he passed the test. So why would he stretch out his hand to take something that he'd already once refused?

I would assume that you might say that if it came down to either he or Sauron getting the Ring, that Gandalf would take it. Okay, maybe in this extreme case; maybe not. I think that he wouldn't. Gandalf believed that it would all work out, and surely his ring encouraged him in this feeling. He believed that something guided him into meeting with Thorin, and something helped Bilbo take possession of the Ring. Gandalf knew that he was not alone in his fight. His other self, the White part, saw things that were previously unknown to him, and I think that he foresaw that his plan had a good chance of working.

If he thought that the Ring would allow him to succeed in his task, then even though he didn't have it, then why not ally with Saruman? This was the next best thing to having the Ring. Maybe he and Saruman could put their heads together and counter Sauron, recover the Ring or even make a new ring that would help.

So why take the Ring? Surely not to help in the Siege of Gondor or to fight the armies of the Dark Lord - these were defeated without the Ring. I might be a bit confused but didn't he believe that even if Gondor were overrun that there were other places from which to fight? What other event would make him so desperate to reject all of his own wisdom, the wisdom of others, honor, duty, love, etc? The other four Istari fell, yet not Gandalf. He had many many year when he could have made other choices - set himself up as a 'Power,' quit the fight, travel out East, die - but this Steward was faithful and resolute to the end. In desperation and despair one might do many of stupid and foolish things.

But Gandalf wasn't desperate. Nor did he despair.

So go ahead, ruminate on Aragorn, vote for Legolas or Gimli or even consider the hobbits, but leave the Wizard off of the list. Gandalf would never take the Ring.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Not so Gandalf: he is entirely sexless and wholly devoted to the combative overthrow of Sauron. In this regard he is like Boromir – can you imagine Boro ever settling down with a nice girl from Rohan in the greenwoods of Ithilien? Nuh-uh.

How do you know? How could you even compare Boromir's mission to Gandalf's? A nationalistic mission to a worldly mission? I have no doubts that if Sauron was overthrown in Boromir's time he would readily have taken a wife. Not to mention, it is not far-fetched to think that Boromir had plently of fair maidens in Gondor and Rohan. Just because Tolkien stated that Boromir delighted "chiefly in arms" does not mean Boromir was "sexless".

So while I agree that the Ring would have corrupted Aragorn in time (terrible thought) I still don’t think he would have succumbed before Gandalf. The Wizard was thinking at every point, “How can I defeat Sauron?” and to that the Ring gives a ready answer; Aragorn was thinking at every point, “How can I save Gondor and thus marry Arwen?”

Again, how do you know? Pray tell how you read through the pages and could actually tell what Tolkien's characters were thinking?

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by alatar

I see Pippin in the same light. He would not mean harm, nor would he seek power. I would agree that he might even be deaf to the call. My assertion has been that if the Ring were in reach, Pippin would try it on just to see what would happen/what it would do. I would posit the same would happen if he saw Frodo's star glass, Gandalf's staff, Boromir's horn, etc.

I agree with you alatar, he can't seem to keep his hands off of everything. For that reason, I believe he would be the first to succumb to the power of the Ring.

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

On a last note, I think I would have thrown the book against the wall and stomped on it if Pippin fell to the Ring. I'm glad this is only hypothetical!

You're not the only one Lyta. If ANY of the others succumbed to the power of the Ring, I would have flipped because I liked them all.