“Not all those who wander are lost.”

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

We see it in Denethor, who says, “I would have things as they were – or nothing”, refusing to leave his city to do battle against the foe and even choosing death over change. (For more on him, please check out the Chapter-by-Chapter discussion of LotR, Book 5, Chapter 7 – ‘The Pyre of Denethor’.)

The paragraph above got me thinking about Aragorn's end, where he accepts change even at the end of all things. It is one thing to passively accept death, or to run from it as the Númenóreans did in their later years, but in Aragorn we see that he actively chose to change from this realm to whatever lay ahead. He knew that it was time to go, to change. And that's not an easy thing to do as one gets older and more "set in one's ways."

Similarly Denethor chose the timing of his own and almost that of his second son's ending, but to me it was an act of despair in which he wanted all thing to just STOP! Having lost one son, he now wanted to freeze time, keep his remaining son close and ward off the Darkness. In his pitiable mind it must have seemed that only immolation would stop change from finding him.

Great thread; will continue to think on it.

[davem]

Of course the first character we meet in the whole Legendarium is a wanderer - Eriol/Aelfwine the mariner - which is another thing that strikes me - how many of Tolkien's wanderers have links to the Sea - Tuor, Earendel, the father-son pairs in Lost Road & Notion Club Papers, Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, Sam, Legolas & Gimli - even the more 'static' characters like Elrond & Galadriel - all finally seek the Sea. Even in SoWM Smith finds the Sea of Windless Storm.The Kingdoms of Gondor & Arnor are founded by Men who come from over the Sea.

The Road goes ever on, & it seems that that Road leads to the Sea - & ultimately over it to what lies beyond. I wonder whether what inspires Tolkien's wanderers to set out is the pull of 'something' they don't understand, but whatever it is is a 'spiritual' pull. Perhaps those who stay where they are are the ones who have refused to listen to the voice of Eru in their hearts? What's that line in Augustine? 'Our hearts are restless till they rest in Thee'? Or in the psalm:

O God, you are my God, I seek you, my soul thirsts for you; my flesh faints for you, as in a weary land where there is no water.

I think Tolkien is using the idea of the 'wanderer' as a symbol. As Bilbo says, you have to be careful stepping into a road, because unless you keep your feet there is no knowing where you may be swept off to.' The physical journey seems the first step on the spiritual journey. Refusing to wander is refusing the goal, choosing the self & its desires over spiritual things. Tolkien's wanderers seem not just wiser & more 'useful' in the world, but more spiritually aware & compassionate too.

The odd thing is that Tolkien himself was someone who hardly travelled at all - well hardly at all physically.

[drigel]

Here we contemplate one of what I feel is a theme that was actually intended by the author. The reader doesnt read road, the reader reads Road. I always interpreted this theme as mainly an internal journey for the reader, for some reason. Especially from the meek hobbits POV.

The sea represents the ulitmate journey, or IMO representing the barrier that separates the corporeal from the non-corporeal, the physical from the spiritual. Aelfwine's passage, or Frodo's footsteps, representing one's life journey (or struggle) from darkness to enlightenment. And what strikes me as I read this thread is how neither of them, for better or worse, are ever the same again. They cannot return from whence they came.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course the first character we meet in the whole Legendarium is a wanderer - Eriol/Aelfwine the mariner - which is another thing that strikes me - how many of Tolkien's wanderers have links to the Sea - Tuor, Earendel, the father-son pairs in Lost Road & Notion Club Papers, Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, Sam, Legolas & Gimli - even the more 'static' characters like Elrond & Galadriel - all finally seek the Sea. Even in SoWM Smith finds the Sea of Windless Storm.The Kingdoms of Gondor & Arnor are founded by Men who come from over the Sea.

The Road goes ever on, & it seems that that Road leads to the Sea - & ultimately over it to what lies beyond.

Well, what would we expect from an author who was writing a mythology for an island nation?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

The odd thing is that Tolkien himself was someone who hardly travelled at all - well hardly at all physically.

But didn't Tolkien travel widely within the UK? It always surprises me to read of the number of different places he did visit, either on family holidays, for work, or simply for days out. You do not have to travel far to travel - speaking as one who has never had a passport and always has plenty of adventures on the old island.

I perfectly understand the pull of the Sea. Having grown up by it I miss it, and when I see it I have to get on or into it for some reason. At first it seems as though the Sea only has an irresistible attraction for Elves, but in most cases (apart from those Elves who live on the shores of Valinor) I would say it is not so much the Sea which attracts, nor the journey, but the place you can get to by making the journey over the sea. For Men, it is literally the Sea itself which attracts, as shown in the Numenorean and Gondorian mariners.

I've been thinking about the differences between the static and the mobile characters for quite a while. I noticed the differnence initially between the Rohirrim and the Gondorians. The Rohirrim in effect emigrated to their land from the North, and the parts of the story about them are relatively full of movement - going to and from Helm's Deep and travelling to Gondor. When they meet strangers such as Hobbits, they react with interest and they seem keen to expand their borders.

Originally Posted by Esty

Théoden is at first limited to his hall; his sight is dim, and he has no will of his own. By leaving it (with Gandalf’s encouragement!), he regains a broader view, giving him hope and purpose, and ultimately plays an important part to victory in the great battle of his age.

The chapter where we first meet Theoden is strangely enough one of the few moments in the book where the Rohirrim keep still!

In contrast, the Gondorians at the time of the War of the Ring seem to have stagnated, or more specifically, the residents of Minas Tirith. One of the first reactions to Pippin is one of suspicion. They also seem to be relatively unaware of what is happening outside their walls. While the stories about the Rohirrim are full of movement, those about the Gondorians are about a closing in, a shutting up shop. Yes, they are undergoing siege so this is natural, even so, this almost seems metaphorical for their state of being closed off from the world.

The actual motif of the journey is strong in Tolkien's work - not only within the plots but the Legendarium is almost a journey in itself, moving from the simple to the complex, the comic to the serious, from the eucatastrophe of LotR to the tragedy of the Sil. Journeys can be about discovery within as well as literal discovery, and the way that Tolkien melds the two always brings to mind Huckleberry Finn - as the journey is made down the river many perils and encounters are to be had, each one teaching a new lesson.

I notice how Tolkien takes care that each character who takes a literal journey also takes an internal journey of discovery, and those who do not take a journey do not change in this way. This would include even good characters, such as Galadriel or Elrond - but then they do take a journey at the end of the book. This perhaps means that they have only one more thing to learn, to relinquish power in Middle-earth and the trip to the Grey Havens teaches them to do this.

Originally Posted by Esty

We also see unwillingness to wander in a 'good' character – Tom Bombadil! In limiting himself to the small boundaries of his own land, he sets limits to his powers and influence, having withdrawn from the wider world.

Maybe Tom does not need to travel any longer? He may have already travelled far and wide and have no more or only one more lesson to learn. Or maybe one of the ideas about him is true, that he embodies Middle-earth itself and so does not need to travel? He is a traveller within his own land, and there may be many things to see in the Old Forest which are very small but nevertheless interesting.

Which brings me back to where I was, which must mean someone was reading the Road Atlas upside down...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

Well, what would we expect from an author who was writing a mythology for an island nation?

I wasn't talking about the sea, but the Sea.

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Maybe Tom does not need to travel any longer? He may have already travelled far and wide and have no more or only one more lesson to learn. Or maybe one of the ideas about him is true, that he embodies Middle-earth itself and so does not need to travel? He is a traveller within his own land, and there may be many things to see in the Old Forest which are very small but nevertheless interesting

It could be argued that Tom is the greatest traveller in Middle-earth - he may not travel far in space, but he certainly has taken a long journey in time, from the appearance of the first stars to the end of the Third Age (& beyond?).

[Boromir88]

The chapter where we first meet Theoden is strangely enough one of the few moments in the book where the Rohirrim keep still!

In contrast, the Gondorians at the time of the War of the Ring seem to have stagnated, or more specifically, the residents of Minas Tirith.~Lalwende

Very good point, something I did not notice before. Even when Theoden was under Saruman's control, the Rohirrim were still wandering (Eomer, Theodred, Erkenbrand...etc). Then their movement becomes increases greatly after Gandalf helps Theoden.

I think there can be two types of wanderers we can talk about here. There's the physical wanderers that travel all over (Gandalf,Elladan? and Elrohir?, Aragorn's been to a wide list of places), and perhaps their final journey is to reach the sea (except Aragorn). Then there are the "mind-wanderers" they may necessarily not travel a lot but their mind wanders.

The best example I can give for this is Faramir. Though Faramir does not travel a lot from what we can tell, he's basically fixed and stuck in Gondor, I would still call him a wanderer, atleast in the mind. Because, he is not afraid of change. He's got an open mind to knowledge, but greatest of all is he doesn't care about change. He doesn't care if he goes against his fathers orders, he doesn't care if Minas Tirith burns to the ground, he doesn't care a King has come back to claim the Throne. He doesn't mind(yes pun intended) the change.

What makes Denether the fixed-mind is as pointed out by Estelyn, he doesn't want change, he doesn't want to lose his throne, he wants to be obeyed and he wants things as they once were. Of course, also Denethor is fixed in the physical sense, we barely see him leave his throne.

It's also interesting how there's mostly been pointing at wanderers being the best and most faithful (Gandalf, Aragorn...etc), but can wanders get lost? For instance, the Noldor. They didn't want to stay fixed, and desired to roam about Middle-earth and run the lands themselves, even after being told no by the higher powers.

Perhaps, there's something with that drigel mentions.

The sea represents the ulitmate journey, or IMO representing the barrier that separates the corporeal from the non-corporeal, the physical from the spiritual.

The Sea is that ultimate journey and those who go to it are the wanderers that are on the right path. But those who want to depart from the sea, and wander away from it (Noldor) are "lost."

Mr. Underhill, I will say "near" redemption isn't the same thing as redemption, but you bring up the great point that Gollum did travel a lot and all over. But I think it's a different case for Gollum. He's wandering because he wants to be fixed. The one time Gollum was fixed in his Misty Mountains for some 500 years was when he had the ring. The reason he wanders is to look for the Ring, possibly similar to what Denethor wanted, wanted life the way as it was. Gollum wanted the Ring back so he could hide in mountains and stay there with it. Just a suggestion, I would love to hear your input.

[Mister Underhill]

Great points about Gollum, B88. It's like the old saying about how almost only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades. In fact, the more I think on it, Gollum's wide wanderings in search of the Ring (selfish gain) didn't teach him much except for geography and a certain brand of wily survivalism. His internal journey doesn't begin until he undertakes (albeit under extreme duress) an external journey for something other than himself. And even though he never made it the whole way, the only thing that even gave him the chance was that journey. If he had remained fixed -- both mentally and physically -- in his hole under the Misty Mountains, he would have never had even the chance of redemption. In the end, it is his lack of real commitment to the service of others that leads to his downfall.

So maybe that's an important component of the wandering -- not wandering aimlessly, nor yet merely with the object of selfish gain, but wandering that leads to the service of others. Gandalf epitomizes this. Bilbo began his journey (also not completely of his own will) ostensibly for gain, but ended up willingly sacrificing his share of the treasure to avert bloodshed.

An interesting topic indeed, Esty.

[alatar]

Didn't Barliman Butterbur's mind tend to wander?

And are we talking about the lack of 'wandering' or control/stasis? The wanderers to me not only accept change, they also accept that there are things that are beyond their care and control. It's that whole serenity prayer thing - one must accept that there are things beyond one's control - you just have to let them go.

Gandalf, the ultimate wanderer, attempts to influence and coerce the inhabitants of ME yet does not seek to control and 'order' the same as does Saruman. Aragorn aids the battle at Helm's Deep yet does not supersede the orders of Theoden - he does not have to 'order' everything. Sauron, stuck as an Eye in a box, wants to reshape all of ME in his image. All things would be in under his dominion.

Anyway, where this all started was in thinking about the Sea. What place contains more chaos, and therefore less order? Even Ulmo doesn't seem to be in control of the Sea all of the time, and even then it seems that he just 'manages' it. The earth can be formed and shaped, but the Sea? Ever changing, formed but ever formless. And never a friend of a being like Sauron.

Didn't Melkor create cold and/or ice in an attempt to control the Sea? Note to Melkor: next time, make ice heavier than water, and then you stand a better chance of freezing the whole deal.

Do our wanderers, having accepted change throughout their lives, go onto the next step, the Sea, the ultimate source of change?

Sorry for the muddled rambling - must be too much water on the brain - but there's a thought in there somewhere.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

I wasn't talking about the sea, but the Sea.

I see. And so this is another example of a localised social and historical trait that is extrapolated into a Universal value applicable to every history and society?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Child

Overall, though, and in contrast to Bilbo, Frodo is someone who would rather have stayed home and enjoyed the benefits of Bag-end. Strange, but I don't get this same sense of reluctance from any of the other hobbits who set out from the Shire. Sam is excited about seeing Elves, and Merry and Pippin seem bound up in the whole idea of being with friends and going on an adventure. Of course, none of them realizes the seriousness of their path to the same extent that Frodo does.

I was thinking about this idea in relation to Hobbits today so this was interesting. What I came up with was that even though Hobbits as a people are not wanderers in the sense of travelling great distances to unknown lands, they do seem to enjoy wandering within The Shire. Even Frodo seems to enjoy this, and when he eventually sets out from Bag End he seeks to go by paths he has enjoyed. In this respect, they are like Tom Bombadil. They do not wander to explore, but to enjoy the familiar and maybe to look a little deeper at the small things they see around them.

But Hobbits in general are also said to be quite insular, suspicious of 'foreigners' from Bree, and even suspicious of those from other parts of The Shire. This too can be said of the Gondorians at the time of the War of the Ring, and they too are not an essentialy bad people, just a people in danger or in decline. So maybe being static is not in all cases necessarily a bad thing. It may lead to limited mental horizons, which in the case of Gondor is almost its downfall, but it is not a bad thing in essence. Interestingly, we see what happens when a culture does become too static - in Moria. The Dwarves here were static and their community was eventually destroyed.

So must it be a difference in the type of stasis? Or is it that stasis in itself not necessarily bad, but can nevertheless lead to disaster?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Excellent posts so far - thanks to all participants! I'm enjoying this discussion as much as I'd hoped to! Two thoughts that occur to me as we go on:

First of all, I wouldn't separate the spiritual aspect from the physical act of wandering. There may be occasions where one occurs without the other, but very frequently, they are closely connected. Body and mind work together more than we consciously realize, and movement/change of the one will produce awareness of the possibility of change in the other. I have experienced that effect in exercise groups that do physical therapy with psychological effects. I also recall reading at least two books that tell of the changes in a person's life taking place in connection with walking or running.

The other thought that I had concerns Aragorn. When he settled down in Minas Tirith to become King, he chose "Telcontar" as the name of his house - meaning "Strider", of course. Isn't it striking that he, who had so many names from which he could have chosen, decided to emphasize that aspect of his personality? It would seem to me that he wanted to make clear that he would keep that wandering outlook on life, the broad point of view, even after he resided primarily in one fixed place. And of course he did continue to travel, to the northern part of the Kingdom, to the Shire, and certainly to other places as well.

(Cross-posted with Lal - interesting thoughts on stasis. I would agree that it is not 'evil' as such, but it means stagnation, lack of growth, and that must almost inevitably lead to negative results.)