Who would have fallen?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

... putting it into the hands of a Hobbit was the samrtest thing Eru caould have arranged.

I agree. Hence, my list of the order in which each member of the Fellowship should have taken the Ring if Frodo had fallen is different to my list of the order in which they would have succumbed:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Pippin - Merry - Sam - Gimli - Legolas - Aragorn - (Boromir) - Gandalf

It was suggested on a thread which considered this question (and which I unfortunately cannot now find) that the best "B-Team" for the journey into Mordor would have been Pippin/Merry, with Merry playing Sam to Pippin's Frodo. I tend to agree.

[davem]

Didn't realise my spelling had been that bad The display here is stuck at about 2pt & I can't increase it, so I can't read what I'm writing too well - have to wait till its posted.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Pippin - Merry - Sam - Gimli - Legolas - Aragorn - (Boromir) - Gandalf

Huh. Pippin? Really? Even considering the episode with the palantír? Pippin seems by far too immature and careless to be considered as the Bearer. I'd put him near, or at, the bottom of the list myself. Though I suppose I could see him playing Sam to Merry's Frodo.

I can't see any of the Fellowship besides Boromir attacking Frodo and wresting the Ring from him by force, even at the Crack -- at least until Frodo had "cracked" himself and claimed the Ring, which would make Frodo first to fall again. alatar's comments about Sam seem spot on here.

I'm more interested in scenarios where someone would have to take the Ring. Suppose Frodo had died in Moria, for instance? Who takes up the Ring then? Or, as I mentioned before, suppose Frodo were down in Cirith Ungol -- a more desperate situation. But I suppose we get deep into "what-ifs" then, because presumably with Gandalf and/or Aragorn in the lead, they might not have taken the Cirith Ungol route, or if they did, they'd be more wary about Shelob, more knowledgeable about the effects of her poison, etc.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, from a more practical point of view it could be argued that, as the Ring cannot actually bestow any 'extra' power on an individual, only corrupt them to mis-use the 'power' they already have, putting it into the hands of a Hobbit was the samrtest thing Eru caould have arranged.

Originally Posted by SpM

It was suggested on a thread which considered this question (and which I unfortunately cannot now find) that the best "B-Team" for the journey into Mordor would have been Pippin/Merry, with Merry playing Sam to Pippin's Frodo. I tend to agree.

Hmm, good points! When the Fellowship was being 'set up' at Rivendell it's almost inevitable that a Hobbit will be chosen to be Ringbearer. How fortunate for the 'powers that be' it was that Bilbo found the Ring, or Hobbits may have never been considered. Different races turn up for the Council, including Dwarves, Elves and Men but Hobbits are the one race which until Gollum, had never been involved with Rings of Power.

It's interesting how someone from each of these races is chosen to join the Fellowship but the majority group is of Hobbits. That cynical voice inside tells me that Gandalf noticed the potential of Hobbits right away, and he took every opportunity/advantage he could, including getting Sam to join in. I agree that it seems Merry/Pippin did make up a good B team.

Thinking about Bilbo, he set a good example with his period bearing the Ring; it was a lengthy time, but he survived relatively well. Gollum held it for much longer and he used it to hide from those he preyed upon whereas Bilbo seems to have kept the Ring to use simply to hide from his neighbours when he wanted privacy. Maybe goodness of heart (or at least lack of malicious intent) has something to do with the Ring not corrupting certain individuals quite as much as we might think it would. Maybe it is the humility of the bearer which is important?

It does make me shudder to think of what would have happened had Aragorn decided to take the ring.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Pippin - Merry - Sam - Gimli - Legolas - Aragorn - (Boromir) - Gandalf

I myself would have put Sam before Merry and not Pippin, but I would put him before the rest of the Fellowship because the Hobbit's have greater will power than the rest. I'm not trying to put down Pippin or anything, but he's the type that would try anything out just to see what it does. Sam, on the other hand has more "hobbit sense" to not use it unless he is in great peril (ie. Cirith Ungol).

Idealy I'd place it like this:

Sam- Merry- Pippin- Legolas- Gimli- Aragorn- (Boromir)- Gandalf

As said before, I see Pippin as Frodo's Sam. Gimli and Legolas, Legolas for Frodo, Gimli for Sam. Finally Aragorn and Boromir or Gandalf, Aragron for Frodo and Boromir(if he lived) and Gandalf for Sam.

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

I'm more interested in scenarios where someone would have to take the Ring. Suppose Frodo had died in Moria, for instance? Who takes up the Ring then? Or, as I mentioned before, suppose Frodo were down in Cirith Ungol -- a more desperate situation. But I suppose we get deep into "what-ifs" then, because presumably with Gandalf and/or Aragorn in the lead, they might not have taken the Cirith Ungol route, or if they did, they'd be more wary about Shelob, more knowledgeable about the effects of her poison, etc.

The problem with that, as you said, is that there are to many if's. The route they would have taken into Mordor would have been completly different if Aragorn and/or Gandalf went with them. If they did go by Cirith Ungol, then as you said, they would have been aware of Shelob's poison effects and they would not have let the Orc band take Frodo away. They would have continued on, Aragorn probbaly carrying Frodo on his back. But, if Aragorn did go with them to Morodor, he wouldn;t have gone to the Paths of the Dead and Gondor and Rohan would have fallen. So if any of the Fellowship should have gone, it should have been Legolas and/or Gimli seeing as they didn't really do a whole lot of anything of importance. Pippin and Merry are the ones who awakened the wrath of the Ents, Gandalf was the mover of all the pieces on the the board, Aragorn had to go to the Paths of the Dead in order to save Gondor. What did Legolas and Gimli do? Accomanied Aragorn, nothing else. They didn't really have anything to do accept accompany Aragorn.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

What did Legolas and Gimli do? Accomanied Aragorn, nothing else. They didn't really have anything to do accept accompany Aragorn.

Whaddya mean? Legolas brought down an Oliphaunt single-handedly.

The reason that I would place Pippin ahead of Sam and Merry is that, for all his (early) immaturity and his undoubted curiosity, he comes across to me as having a greater spiritual strength than the other two. Sam and Merry are more down to earth and practical, which is what makes them great "side-kicks". Pippin just seems to be much more akin to Frodo than either of them, on a spiritual level.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, from a more practical point of view it could be argued that, as the Ring cannot actually bestow any 'extra' power on an individual, only corrupt them to mis-use the 'power' they already have...

What's the basis for this? Gandalf seems to think it would give him "extra" power:

Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great, for my strength.

I daresay Galadriel's speech at her temptation and her discussion of the nature of the Ring implies the same.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

They didn't really have anything to do accept accompany Aragorn.

In the early drafts Malbeth's prophecy required three princes of different race to summon the Dead. I think this is why the Three Hunters went together. By the time Tolkien had changed his mind about this it was probably too late to alter the storyline.

What's the basis for this? Gandalf seems to think it would give him "extra" power:

Depends how you understand their words. My understanding is that in taking the Ring they would have rejected all moral responsibility over their own innate power & become like Sauron. Hence Gandalf would have had too much power (his own) to use 'freely'. He would have no longer been a servant of the Secret Fire, but in his own mind have become a 'Master' of it. He feared to become another Saruman. The Ring deceives one into misusing their own power - thinking like Sauron.

I see no evidence that innate power can be 'transferred' in the way you're talking about. If we look at Boromir's 'fantasy' of what he would become if he had the Ring it is nothing more than he could have done anyway. The Ring worked by convincing its bearer that it alone could give them power to do what they wished to do. It actually convinced them they could do nothing without it, that they were weak & helpless victims of circumstance. All it really seemed to do in practical terms was make them invisible.

Sauron is a 'deciever' & I see no reason to believe that his Ring would do anything else. Have you noticed that none of the bearers of the Ring become suddenly more powerful? What exactly did it enable Isildur to do? Or Gollum, or Bilbo? It merely enslaved their minds. Actually it makes them weaker, if anything - subject to their own desires. Of course, if Sauron got it back he would regain the power he put into it. I just don't see it empowering anyone else.