The mouth of Sauron - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Perky Ent · 09-20-2005, 06:39 PM

I guess that's him. All mouth and no brain. I'd prefer meeting the Ear of Sauron. He wouldn't mouth off at me, and he'd just listen to my demands. And when he's done listening, I can have the satisfaction of hearing Legolas say :" Look! The messenger only has ears! ". You'd think I'd react with a

, but when you've know him as long as I have, it's more of an

Boromir88 · 09-20-2005, 07:57 PM

Quote:

your second point. in the movie I put it to you that Aragorn did not kill the MoS because of his taunts, but because the people of the West were losing Hope. the MoS was defeating them with his words. He had to be stopped. It's as simple as that. In the book Aragorn helped to do this with a look, but that just wouldn't work in this film, so he lopped his head off.~Essex

That still doesn't mean anything. Even in the unhonorable times of war we live in now, directors show they can understand that you couldn't kill a messenger (Tolkien understood this too and he fought in the first war where really it wasn't honorable any more).

Prior to WW1 wars were seen as a "Gentleman's war." With rules that each side followed because it was considered the honorable way to fight. Directors of Troy, Braveheart, Gladiator, King Arthur...etc all show they understood this concept. You can't kill a messenger.

If the MoS was using words to defeat people then Aragorn needs to use words back to send him away cowering, like Tolkien shows. Clearly stated within the books (as well as Kuru's sig), he could not be assailed. No matter how vile, low, or cruel the MoS may have stooped with his words, you can't kill a messenger. He's not there to fight, he's there to deliver terms and may not be assailed.

Let me take some common day examples. I don't know what it's like in England but in the US if someone breaks in your house you can't kill them and say it's self defense. You may only use a force equal to that of the attacker. So if a guy breaks in your house, there's no fear for your life, he has no weapon, no fear that he's there to kill you just rob you, you can't kill him and claim self-defense. Now if he had a gun and he was pointing it at you, then of course you are afraid he's going to kill you and therefor can take the proper action in defending yourself. So, it's this concept that you can only use the amount of force that is equal to that of the attacker. Even without this, still the bottomline is you can't kill a messenger.

In this case, the MoS was using word, Aragorn can use words back. I prefer the banter that went on to the three seconds of talking and "off with your head."

The Perky Ent · 09-20-2005, 08:22 PM

Don't kill the messenger! But, almost most of this is true: [quote=boromir88]Prior to WW1 wars were seen as a "gentleman's war"]. If you think about it, one of the reasons America gained it's independance from Britian was because it used Guriella warfare when the British expected them to follow the rules they fought by. But yes...You are, of course, right!

Essex · 09-22-2005, 11:51 AM

Boromir your point

Quote:

he's there to deliver terms

He was not there to deliver terms in the movie. yes, he was in the book, as I've explained before on various threads. But in the film he was just there to taunt them and to remove any last vestages of Hope.

He was NOT a messenger, nor there to Parley.

Therefore, off with his head!

05-19-2006, 01:56 PM

When the Mouth addresses Aragon, Gandalf, and the others, in the film, he begins by asking "Is there any in this route with authority to treat with me?". To treat as defined below is a term for negotiating.
Treat- to negotiate terms- intransitive verb to negotiate, especially in order to reach a settlement
Thus the was there to negotate and not just to fling insults. So there was really no reason to kill him.

Ellewen · 05-20-2006, 09:58 AM

This has probably already been said, but if you watch the EE of RotK. You'll find the Mouth of Sauron there.

ninja91 · 05-22-2006, 10:59 AM

As far as I know, the Mouth of Sauron was the messenger of Sauron himself AND the lieutenent of the Dark Tower (Barad Dur). He is not slayed in the books, although he is in the movie by Aragorn. In the books, he refers to himself as an ambassador who may not be attacked.
This whole scene happens at the Black Gate when Aragorn leads the host of the west into Mordor to bide time for Frodo and Sam to destroy the Ring.
Hope this helps!

09-20-2005, 06:39 PM	#1
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Silly Legolas! Logic is for Men I guess that's him. All mouth and no brain. I'd prefer meeting the Ear of Sauron. He wouldn't mouth off at me, and he'd just listen to my demands. And when he's done listening, I can have the satisfaction of hearing Legolas say :" Look! The messenger only has ears! ". You'd think I'd react with a , but when you've know him as long as I have, it's more of an __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

09-20-2005, 08:22 PM	#3
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Don't kill the messenger! But, almost most of this is true: [quote=boromir88]Prior to WW1 wars were seen as a "gentleman's war"]. If you think about it, one of the reasons America gained it's independance from Britian was because it used Guriella warfare when the British expected them to follow the rules they fought by. But yes...You are, of course, right! __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

05-19-2006, 01:56 PM	#5
Witch King of Agmar Guest Posts: n/a	The Mouth was a diplomat in both the movie and the book When the Mouth addresses Aragon, Gandalf, and the others, in the film, he begins by asking "Is there any in this route with authority to treat with me?". To treat as defined below is a term for negotiating. Treat- to negotiate terms- intransitive verb to negotiate, especially in order to reach a settlement Thus the was there to negotate and not just to fling insults. So there was really no reason to kill him.

05-20-2006, 09:58 AM	#6
Ellewen Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Somewhere in the woods looking for a place to recharge my laptop's battery. Posts: 35	This has probably already been said, but if you watch the EE of RotK. You'll find the Mouth of Sauron there. __________________ "Wait one moment and I'll get my bow and quiver... No wait I'll quiver first and get it over with." quivers - Robin Hood

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05-22-2006, 10:59 AM	#7
ninja91 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Chozo Ruins. Posts: 421	As far as I know, the Mouth of Sauron was the messenger of Sauron himself AND the lieutenent of the Dark Tower (Barad Dur). He is not slayed in the books, although he is in the movie by Aragorn. In the books, he refers to himself as an ambassador who may not be attacked. This whole scene happens at the Black Gate when Aragorn leads the host of the west into Mordor to bide time for Frodo and Sam to destroy the Ring. Hope this helps!