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Old 10-03-2005, 07:54 AM   #1
Kuruharan
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The line about the star (the tail end of which is now my siggy for the chapter) is one of my favorites.
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Old 10-03-2005, 10:06 AM   #2
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'If only the Lady could see us or hear us, I'd say to her: "Your Ladyship, all we want is light and water: just clean water and plain daylight, better than any jewels, begging your pardon."
Sam here asks for light and water, he even specifies that he wants only the ordinary light and water, that he is not after Light or Miruvor or anything of that nature. And he gets both. But he also does get Light:

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There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. His song in the Tower had been defiance rather than hope; for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even his master's, ceased to trouble him. He crawled back into the brambles and laid himself by Frodo's side, and putting away all fear he cast himself into a deep untroubled sleep.
This is an odd moment. It gives Sam peace and hope, but is his reaction quite what it ought to be, considering the high risk situation he and Frodo are in? Note that his 'fate' ceases to trouble him, which seems to be some kind of balm to soothe his troubled soul, but this also makes him lose his sense of caution, and he goes to sleep alongside Frodo rather than keeping watch. This seems to be reckless behaviour.

Or is the Light of the star also protecting him? Is it a 'sign' that for that moment, Sam does not need to keep watch. Sam does not need to be troubled with 'fate' at this point; it is as though fate or who/what ever deals out 'fate' is watching him benevolently and he knows it. This is an intensely spiritual moment, almost in an Eastern 'mystic' sense.



In this chapter we have yet more clues about what the Nazgul do.

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'They've lost their heads, that's what it is. And some of the bosses are going to lose their skins too, I guess, if what I hear is true
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Go to your filthy Shriekers, and may they freeze the flesh off you! If the enemy doesn't get them first. They've done in Number One, I've heard, and I hope it's true!
More mention of skin and flesh being removed. In fact we also have a clue as to how the skin and flesh is removed, as it may be 'frozen' off the body. And it wouldn't be much 'punishment' if the victim was not alive during and after the process, so I think this is more evidence that the Nazgul (and Sauron?) operate some kind of horrific procedure whereby the 'Fea' is left exposed. As Tolkien often does when broaching topics of horror, he skims the edges and leaves it up to the reader to decide what might or might not happen. This is something which he may have chosen to do to stop his writing being simple 'horror' fiction, but it actually has the effect of making the horror all the more vile for being 'veiled', something which we must work out for ourselves.
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Old 10-03-2005, 01:47 PM   #3
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It seems that Sam has taken over as main character in the story. From now on we will see things through his eyes - which we mostly have done for a good while. We now see Frodo from the ‘outside’, watching his inexorable destruction through the eyes of his servant. Its an interesting approach. We get Sam’s feelings & reactions, his inner dialogue, but not Frodo’s - we only see him & hear his words....except at one point:
Frodo’s dreams

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His sleep had been uneasy, full of dreams of fire, and waking brought him no comfort. Still his sleep had not been without all healing virtue: he was stronger, more able to bear his burden one stage further.
In the earlier parts of the tale we had accounts of what Frodo dreamt - the Tower, with Gandalf, the dream vision of the rain curtain. Now the accounts are vague - of fire. Well, the Ring is coming home, back to the place of its birth: the fires that well at the heart of the earth. But are these Frodo’s dreams, or the Ring’s? Is there any difference, & if so, how much. If Sauron & the Ring are ‘one’ so, very nearly, are Frodo & the Ring. Yet Frodo is without hope:

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'Still we shall have to try,' said Frodo. 'It's no worse than I expected. I never hoped to get across. I can't see any hope of it now. But I've still got to do the best I can....

'Quietly, Sam,' Frodo whispered. 'There may be others about. We have evidently had a very narrow escape, and the hunt was hotter on our tracks than we guessed. But that is the spirit of Mordor, Sam; and it has spread to every corner of it. Orcs have always behaved like that, or so all tales say, when they are on their own. But you can't get much hope out of it. They hate us far more, altogether and all the time. If 242 those two had seen us, they would have dropped all their quarrel until we were dead.'...

'All right, Sam,' said Frodo. 'Lead me! As long as you've got any hope left. Mine is gone. But I can't dash, Sam. I'll just plod along after you.'..

'Look here, Sam dear lad,' said Frodo: 'I am tired, weary, I haven't a hope left. But I have to go on trying to get to the Mountain, as long as I can move. ..

Things are looking up, Mr. Frodo. Haven't you got some hope now?'
'Well no, not much, Sam,' Frodo sighed. 'That's away beyond the mountains. We're going east not west. And I'm so tired. And the Ring is so heavy, Sam. And I begin to see it in my mind all the time, like a great wheel of fire.'
Frodo repeatedly stresses his lack of hope, but, at the same time, his determination to continue without it. Hope, it seems, is not necessary for Frodo. Something else provides the impetus. But what? What exactly is driving Frodo? The obvious answer is his determination to ‘do the right thing’ in spite of all obstacles. Yet there may be something else - the Ring. Perhaps it is the desire of the Ring that overcomes Frodo’s hopelessness, drives him on into Mordor. At this point we have to wonder whether the desire to destroy it is really uppermost in his mind - his reaction in the Tower may cause us to question that. The Ring, like a ‘wheel of fire’ fills his mind, pushing out all other things:

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But this blind dark seems to be getting into my heart. As I lay in prison, Sam, I tried to remember the Brandywine, and Woody End, and The Water running through the mill at Hobbiton. But I can't see them now.'
The last sentence of the chapter is full of symbolism. Frodo lay ‘like a dead thing’. In effect he has died - the Hobbit who set out from Bag End the previous September is dead & gone, & there is no real going back. He has gone from Hobbit to ‘Orc’ to ‘corpse’. When he says that he does not think it will be his part to strike any blow again one has to wonder whether this reflects a growing spirituality or a growing sense of uselessness & futility.

For Sam, on the other hand, there is one sign of hope after another. He gets his wish for light & water, he sees the star which inspires him, gives him perspective. Yet it is odd that it is Sam, not Frodo (who is most in need of it) who is the recipient of all these signs of hope. Frodo is now ‘plodding along’ without hope, & it is down to Sam to provide not just the practical necessities of food & water, but also the inspiration. Sam, for whatever reason, simply will not give up this ‘stupid’, ‘futile’, job. It is as though someone - Gandalf?, Galadriel?, Eru? - has realised that the burden borne by Frodo is too great, that nothing more can be added to the weight he carries - not even hope - because hope itself may be a burden. Where there is hope of success there is also fear of failure, of having that hope snatched away & trampled into the dust. Frodo plods along for the sake of plodding. Sam goes on with hope, because he can still bear the weight of it. He also goes on in faith - but whether that faith is in Eru (probably not) or simply in Galadriel, & to a lesser extent in his master, is another question, & not really relevant at this point. Frodo is fighting against ‘powers & principalities, Sam against the environment, against hunger & thirst, against Orcs & Gollum.

We have yet another ‘crossing’ of a border into another ‘realm’ - in the earlier parts of the tale these were river crossings the Brandywine, the Bruinen, the Anduin, & here too we have the crossing of a dried up stream. These are points of transition almost, from one level of ‘reality’ to another. This is the final one - all the rest will be crossings back & ‘out’. Further & further in the Hobbits move, to the very centre of earthly power - not Barad dur, but Orodruin, the Sammath Naur, where the Fire wells up from the heart of the earth, the place of creation (of the Ring) & destruction, the place where the Quest was born & where it will reach its culmination, where the ‘light shines in the darkness’, where evil waits to provide its own destruction, to consume itself, & liberate the slaves in its thrall.

The water & light that Sam ‘prays’ for, the star that shines through the cloud & smoke, all demonstrate that even in the heart of hell the Good may be found, that nowhere is completely closed off from hope (except, perhaps, the heart of Frodo the Hobbit).
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:57 AM   #4
Kuruharan
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Something else provides the impetus. But what? What exactly is driving Frodo? The obvious answer is his determination to ‘do the right thing’ in spite of all obstacles. Yet there may be something else - the Ring. Perhaps it is the desire of the Ring that overcomes Frodo’s hopelessness, drives him on into Mordor. At this point we have to wonder whether the desire to destroy it is really uppermost in his mind - his reaction in the Tower may cause us to question that. The Ring, like a ‘wheel of fire’ fills his mind, pushing out all other things
Are you implying that the Ring is driving Frodo to Mount Doom because it knows what will happen there and thinks that will give it an insurmountable chance to get back to its master?

An interesting theory, I'd never thought of it like that before.
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:40 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Kuruharan
Are you implying that the Ring is driving Frodo to Mount Doom because it knows what will happen there and thinks that will give it an insurmountable chance to get back to its master?

An interesting theory, I'd never thought of it like that before.
An interesting theory, I agree, but one that would be very risky on the Ring's part. After all, it would know (in so far as the Ring is sentient) why it is being taken there- for destruction, and Orodruin is the one place in Middle-Earth where "mislaying" the Ring would be catastrophic for its continued existence. And then there was Sam... The Ring would clearly be aware of his presence- and the fact that he gave up its lure very easily. Sam would be a very dangerous wildcard where the Ring was concerned, because the Ring could not count on its temptation to prevent him from forcing its destruction.

On the other hand, the Ring was certainly without many cards to play. It had been unsuccessful in drawing the Nazgul's attention, and the Nazgul were no longer around to draw. Sam had proven incorruptable. Gollum was gone, and none of the Orks had yet caught a glimpse of it.

And too, the Ring (again, assuming it capable of complete thought), could have been "overconfident" for lack of a better word. After all, Frodo was almost totally under its domination as it was, and its powers increased the nearer they got to Mount Doom. The idea that Frodo could destroy it was laughable- as we indeed learn in another chapter. And, in fact, it took was may best be called a Divince Act of Providence (ie. Gollum's fall) to destroy it.

An interesting theory, indeed...
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:50 AM   #6
Kuruharan
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I don't think the Ring would have worried about Sam too much. I mean we all laugh at the mental picture of Sam giving Frodo a helpful shove over the cliff, but I don't think Sam would have ever done that.
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:54 AM   #7
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I don't think the Ring would have worried about Sam too much. I mean we all laugh at the mental picture of Sam giving Frodo a helpful shove over the cliff, but I don't think Sam would have ever done that.
WE know that, but did the Ring?

The Ring, after all, knew that Sam had a mind relatively unclouded by its lure. And it KNEW what the purpose was in taking it to Mt. Doom. Furthermore, Frodo wouldn't have to be pushed into the pit to destroy the Ring. Imagine if Sam had taken it by force from Frodo (okay, I really can't see it happening, but imagine it anyway). Having given it up once before, I think it likely that he could have cast it in. Voila! You have Sam and Frodo both alive, and the Ring destroyed.

T'is unlikely, I know, for us who have seen what actually happens, but remember that at this point in the story, it is still very much up in the air what is going to happen on Mt. Doom. Just because we know what will happen, and how Sam would act, does not mean that the Ring would.
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