LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 2 - The Land of Shadow

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

...if the Ring is to be intuitive and influential then it has to have some understanding of what is going on around it. You will have to explain how it could possibly be otherwise.

I'm not sure I can explain, but I'm thinking of intuition such as is found in animals. For example, my dog can understand what's going on, but not my exact words. She knows we're going to drive in the car, but though she hears when I mention the goal, she does not know what the words mean. This is not precisely the same thing, but I hope it illustrates the general idea.

[Aiwendil]

Estelyn wrote:

I'm not sure I can explain, but I'm thinking of intuition such as is found in animals. For example, my dog can understand what's going on, but not my exact words. She knows we're going to drive in the car, but though she hears when I mention the goal, she does not know what the words mean. This is not precisely the same thing, but I hope it illustrates the general idea.

Yes, I think this is what I was trying to get at earlier. I don't believe that the Ring can think or know or decide. It does not take in information and analyze it as we do. It has only a will and no mind; it can feel but it can't observe.

[Kuruharan]

It has only a will and no mind

Now you're going to have to explain how that is possible. Having a will implies direction and a certain level of independence. Having direction implies having some ability to make choices.

Now, obviously, the Ring does not have a literal mind, but I believe Tolkien described the Ring as existing on the spiritual plane at least as much as it existed on the physical. All this "thinking" comes from the part of Sauron that was placed in the Ring at its beginning.

[Formendacil]

T'would seem to me that Esty is arguing that while the Ring could sense roughly where it was going (closer to Mordor, closer to Sauron), and could sense and manipulate the feelings of its wearers and those around them, it could not necessarily understand speech.

To elaborate, the Ring clearly knew it was going to Mordor. It could sense (magnetically, in a way) the tug of Sauron getting stronger as they got closer. It would also sense the greater sense of dread and fear, on its bearer at least, if not those around, as they drew nearer to the Dark Land. Chances are, the Ring could also sense that Frodo was steeling himself to do something. The question is WHAT?

I doubt, myself, if the Ring knew they were going to Orodruin, at least not before they were practically on the mountain's foot. Before that, they were going steadily in the direction of Barad-dur, which suited the Ring fine. As for how it would have interpretted Frodo's "determination to go on", who knows what the Ring made of his plans? Certainly, just going to Mordor, regardless of destroying the Ring, would take a pretty big act of willpower. And once in Mordor, Frodo's main feeling is To Keep Going On, which seems like a fitting feeling for travelling in Mordor.

Perhaps the Ring didn't know where they were going, until they reached Mt. Doom.

[davem]

This has me wondering about the Ring-inspired fantasies of Gandalf, Galadriel, Boromir & Sam, et al. Where do those fantasies arise? Is the Ring putting those specific fantasies into their heads, or are they creating the whole thing themselves - what I mean is, is it a case of 'If I claim the Ring I can do X', so that the power trips are invented by the individual? Which would mean that Gandalf & the rest on some level had thought about doing some such thing anyway. Sam actually had those power fantasies already on some subconscious level, rather than the Ring constructing that fantasy & putting it into his head.

Is this another example of Sam being 'torn in two'? Part of him wants to be a simple gardener while another part of him wants to be 'Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age', so that rather than his refusal being a rejection of the Ring, it is actually a refusal & rejection of his own desire. The conflict is an inner rather than an outer one, between aspects of oneself. Only one who is 'torn in two' in such a way, fighting an inner conflict, will be tempted by the Ring. Faramir & Aragorn, it would seem, are not tempted by the Ring because they are not so psychologically 'divided against themselves. The Ring would then only be a temptation to those with this inner 'split' (either actual or in potentio). When we look at Smeagol/Gollum we seem to see that inner split made manifest.

[lathspell]

I'm not sure I can explain, but I'm thinking of intuition such as is found in animals. For example, my dog can understand what's going on, but not my exact words. She knows we're going to drive in the car, but though she hears when I mention the goal, she does not know what the words mean. This is not precisely the same thing, but I hope it illustrates the general idea.

Yes, I think I understand what you mean and I agree. The Ring knew they were travelling, ofcourse, but it didn't know where they were going. The Ring doesn't listen, see or smell like Frodo and Sam do, but it does pick up things. I think they may be emotions, because than the Ring would feel mostly hopelessness and determination, and this may explain why the Ring was so content with Frodo. He had no hope, was walking in Mordor, and was only a small hobbit. I think the Ring knew Sam was with him, for Sam had worn it, but it didn't know his emotions.

All this "thinking" comes from the part of Sauron that was placed in the Ring at its beginning.

Yes, indeed, and this also explains why the Ring didn't even think about Frodo and Sam trying to destroy it. Gandalf says in LotR that (I don't have the exact quote) 'Sauron doesn't know, nor guess that they wish to destroy the Ring, because he wouldn't do it himself. He would claim the Ring and be Lord. And therein lies their only hope.'
Because the Ring is 'a part of Sauron' it wouldn't think about being destroyed, if we take Gandalf's words as true. Than, if it isn't going to be destroyed, why does it travel in Mordor? Because it is being returned to it's master, by the little Hobbit without hope, but with this one determination.

[Kuruharan]

Yes, indeed, and this also explains why the Ring didn't even think about Frodo and Sam trying to destroy it. Gandalf says in LotR that (I don't have the exact quote) 'Sauron doesn't know, nor guess that they wish to destroy the Ring, because he wouldn't do it himself. He would claim the Ring and be Lord. And therein lies their only hope.'
Because the Ring is 'a part of Sauron' it wouldn't think about being destroyed, if we take Gandalf's words as true. Than, if it isn't going to be destroyed, why does it travel in Mordor? Because it is being returned to it's master, by the little Hobbit without hope, but with this one determination.

But why in Arda would it think that the original intention was to take it back to Sauron? At a bare minimum the Ring knew that it had been around Sauron’s primary enemies. They had persistently refused to claim it and refused to allow Sauron's servants (the Ring must have known they were there too) to take it. It would be an act of monumental stupidity on the part of the Ring to think they refused to claim it because they were willingly sending it back to Sauron. If that had been the case, the simplest solution would have been to give it to the nearest Nazgul. If the Ring had any capacity for (what we might term) “thought” it had to know that something fishy was going on.

On another slightly related point, Sauron instantly realized what Gandalf was about the minute he knew the Ring was in Mount Doom. How much more so the Ring who knew (at a bare minimum) where it had been and who it had been around. If you concede any ability of thought to the Ring, you have to concede the possibility that it knew an attempt was being made on its life.

[Aiwendil]

Kuruharan wrote:

Now you're going to have to explain how that is possible. Having a will implies direction and a certain level of independence. Having direction implies having some ability to make choices.

I don't know whether it's possible. But this is a fictional world.

But surely we can speak at times of "mindless desires". As I see it, the Ring certainly did have desires - chief of which was probably to return to Sauron. It willed that it return to Sauron. But I don't think this implies a decision to return to Sauron. Rather the Ring willed it, and sought it, simply because that's what the Ring does; that's what's in its nature.

Of course, all this is really tangential to Davem's initial question, which I think is very interesting in its own right: is the determination to reach Mt. Doom Frodo's or the Ring's? I had always thought it Frodo's, but now I'm not sure.

Davem wrote:

This has me wondering about the Ring-inspired fantasies of Gandalf, Galadriel, Boromir & Sam, et al. Where do those fantasies arise? Is the Ring putting those specific fantasies into their heads, or are they creating the whole thing themselves - what I mean is, is it a case of 'If I claim the Ring I can do X', so that the power trips are invented by the individual? Which would mean that Gandalf & the rest on some level had thought about doing some such thing anyway. Sam actually had those power fantasies already on some subconscious level, rather than the Ring constructing that fantasy & putting it into his head.

Another interesting question, and one that again bears upon the nature of the Ring. It's related to the whole internal vs. external issue that Shippey discusses in Author of the Century. And what I'm tempted to say in answer to this is what I'm tempted to say about that issue: that, in a strange way, it's both. The Ring is, in my view, both a source of evil, with a will and power of its own, and a "psychic amplifier", a mirror that reflects one's darker self. So I see both an active temptation on the part of the Ring and a passive amplification of Gandalf's/Galadriel's/Boromir's/Sam's own weaknesses. Now, I don't know whether Sam had literally fantasized about power before the Ring incident; I doubt it. But I do think that the capacity for such fantasy was inherent in Sam, and this is what the Ring drew out.

A stray thought that occurs to me as I'm writing this: of all the characters who hold or use or are offered the Ring, Frodo seems to be the only one who doesn't have some power fantasy about using it. Now, obviously, Frodo is not immune to the effects of the Ring. But all we see in terms of its effect on him is his unwillingness to give it up and the weight and strain that it eventually begins to put on him. Not until Mt. Doom is there any suggestion that Frodo has even considered the possibility of really claiming and using the Ring - which (and sorry I'm jumping ahead here) makes the eventual climactic scene all the more shocking and powerful.