The Narn i Chîn Húrin: Beleg & Falivirn

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

I wish we had an expert in alliterative verse to help us with these sections.

I can only underline this! And I am so far from being an expert, that I feel nearly helpless about all the needed changes.

Therefore I will not mention simple agreement fartherone in the discussion.

NA-RG-29: A couple of lines above Gwindor had "cried: 'Magic of Morgoth! A! madness damned!/ with friends thou fightest!'" So I thought he might be called a freind of Turin already. But you suggestions sounds good and is clearer in its meaning.

NA-RG-32: I would prefer your first suggestion even if the grammar is agianst it.

NA-EX-47.5: Your rearangement sounds perfectly well for me.

Gnomes -> Elves or Exiles: I think we are at one mind in this now: No simple replacment but a checkup what term is best used in the context. When ever we reread or FoG in the "changes indicated version" we should have an open eye for this.

NA-RG-02: I was temped in this case to stick to "Great", since if the Valar as a whole do rejoice, then that is true as well for the Great in particular. But it is a minor point and Valar as a replacment works for me.

NA-RG-07: Sorry this was a misprint. I would have liked to suggest:

of NA-RG-07{Flinding go-Fuilin }[Guilin's son]? Shall {free}[great]-born NA-RG-07.5{Gnome}[Gwindor]

NA-Ti-23: So we have:

NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and {he was senseless in a sleep of great weariness} NA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 the {dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him>. But though Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him NA-EX-47<editorial bridge the Lay tells that

Spellnames: Aiwendil wrote:

... but considering the absence of the spell from later versions, it seems likely that the special nature of Beleg's sword was considered sufficient for the severing of the bonds.

I take your point. Anglachel is a special balde, but the absence of the wetting of the sword done with the uttering of spells sufficinet for such a occasion is most likley due to compression. Considering that BEleg had run all the way from Amon Rudh without sleep, and that on Amon Rudh he had surely done a lot of hard fighting with Anglachel it is more than likley that the blade was bit notchy. Thus with a false attemp with other blades on the fetters, it seems very likely to me that Beleg would wet the blade before using it in such a occasion.
In short I am still holding to the spells, even if they were not as neccesary as in the original poem.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

NA-RG-32: I put a critical comma in the wrong place in my last suggestion. It should have been:

NA-RG-32{Flinding}[Fierce] he answered, and fear left him

. . . which I think sounds better than "answered he".

The spell: I suppose your reasoning makes sense. I am still a little unsure, but I can definitely see keeping the spell.

Further comments up to NA-RG-55

NA-RG-38: I agree with your use of "Fingon" in place of "Faery". But what do you make of the "seven kindreds"?

where sleep the swords of seven kindreds,

I am not sure whether this is a reference to some earlier conception of the divisions of Men or Elves.

NA-RG-40:

Thus NA-RG-40{Flinding}[the Friend] faltered, faintly stirring

I think we can just use:

Thus NA-RG-40{Flinding}[Gwindor] faltered, faintly stirring

NA-SL-08: I agree with the deletion, but in view of it I would not start a new sentence at line 1481:

There the twain enfolded phantom twilight {1475} and dim mazes dark, unholy NA-SL-08{, in Nan Dungorthin where nameless gods have shrouded shrines in shadows secret, more old than Morgoth or the ancient lords the golden Gods of the guarded West}. {1480} [B]but the ghostly dwellers of that grey valley

NA-RG-42: I would say:

NA-RG-42{Flinding}[Gwindor] fancied, fell, unwholesome

NA-RG-44: We might use "Gwindor" here instead of "fearful" but I'm undecided on which is to be preferred - saving the precise sense or saving the alliteration.

NA-SL-09:
We must of course delete the reference to fugitives from the battle, but your line does not have the requisite alliteration. All I can think of at the moment is:

NA-SL-09{that death and thraldom in the dreadful throes
of Nirnaith Ornoth, a number scanty, escaped unscathed.} Thence skirting wild [the wooded hills,]

There's a typo in line 1548 - "Nan-thatren" for "Nan-tathren".

NA-RG-51: This is a case where I'd go for "Elf" instead of "Noldo", leaving simple alliteration.

NA-RG-52: I would say:

Then NA-RG-52{Flinding}[Gwindor] fearful lest fresh madness

NA-RG-53:

NA-RG-53 {But Flinding the faithful}[The Faithful friend Gwindor] feared no longer;

If "friend" is considered a stress, then the first half-line is too long; if it's not, then it doesn't contribute to the alliterative scheme and is thus useless. So I would make it:

NA-RG-53 {But Flinding the faithful}[But faithful Gwindor ] feared no longer;

NA-RG-55: This can be:

and fared to NA-RG-55{Flinding}[Gwindor], and flung him down

[Aiwendil]

Also - I did some checking and found at least one source on the internet that says that X A A X alliteration is allowed. But I have yet to notice an example of it in Tolkien.

[Findegil]

NA-RG-32: Ok, "... answered he, ..." it will be then.

NA-RG-38: 7 kindreds: Fingon, Maedhros, Falathrim & Gwindor's, House of Hador, House of Haleth, Dwarves, Easterlings of Bor
That is not the only possible counting, but a possible one. And that is sufficient for sticking to the notation. By the way: What meaning had the 7 kindreds in the original poem?

NA-RG-44:

of NA-RG-44{Flinding} the[ fearful] fugitive; in his face the morning

is nice. And I can't think that the exact sense is much changed.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

NA-RG-38: I don't know whether "seven" had some definite reference in the original; in any case, you're right that if we count properly, the number is suitable.

NA-RG-44: Okay, we can go with "fearful".

A few more comments for now:

NA-RG-57: I'm at a loss here; I can't think of anything except:

NA-RG-57{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin} the faithful, to his feet striding.

But I think that now we are really stretching the "faithful" epithet.

NA-RG-58: I think that

Whither, O NA-RG-58{Flinding}[friend], our feet now turn we,

. . . is fine now, since he really is Turin's friend. But no need for capitalization.

NA-RG-60: A straightforward Flinding>Gwindor substitution works here, I think:

said NA-RG-60{Flinding}[Gwindor], 'my feet would fain wander,

NA-SL-12: I think we must phrase this:

of Feanor}[that Finrod] founded {when they fled southward}] following Thingol;

. . . since alliteration on the last stress is not permitted (at least, that's my understanding). But I'm not sure that "following Thingol" is a suitable description for Finrod's founding of Nargothrond.

NA-RG-62: Here I would use "Elves" instead of "Noldor", since the sense is not hurt by it.

NA-RG-63: Again, I think "Gwindor" is a suitable substitute for "Flinding", leaving simple alliteration.

NA-RG-64: Perhaps we could use:

NA-RG-64{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin}, a Noldo of {the} Narog's folk {of Narog} {1780}

NA-SL-12.5: A minor typo; should be:

and NA-SL-12.5{the son of Húrin}[a son of Men] his sworn comrade

NA-RG-65, -67: I'm at a loss for both of these.

[Findegil]

NA-SL-12: Aiwendil wrote:

But I'm not sure that "following Thingol" is a suitable description for Finrod's founding of Nargothrond.

I think it is not to bad. At least we have the story of Finrod being impressed by Menegroth and then asking Thingol for help.

NA-RG-65: What is about:

Thither bent their steps
NA-RG-65{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin}[son of Guilin], {whose feet}who going remembered {1810}
that white roadway.

NA-RG-67: I am lost on this one as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Up to NA-SL-21

NA-RG-69: Another difficult one. I come up only with this:

but {Flinding go-Fuiling} [the son of Guilin] {fiercely} savagely answered

NA-RG-70 & NA-RG-71: This does not fit the meter. Better solutions are needed. But I could not find any.

I think these are fine.

NA-RG-73, -74, -76: Again, I'm lost.

NA-SL-15: I don't think that alliterating "heart" with "heart" is desirable. Perhaps:

of NA-SL-15{Húrin Thalion}[the House of Hador], what heart in this throng

NA-SL-16: I think it would be preferable to delete these lines (1958 - 1964) rather than changing the reference from Turin to Gwindor.

NA-EX-49: I would make this:

And the Lay tells of the feast at Gwindor's return:

NA-RG-80: I am tempted to suggest:

the form and face of NA-RG-80{Fuilin's son} [the faithful Elf]

NA-RG-82: I think we should use the article:

the folk of [b]NA-RG-82[b]{Faërie}[the Elves] in the first noontide

NA-RG-83, -84, -85: Where does "Culurien" come from? And is "Silpion" still valid? I thought "Telperion" replaced it. But I can't at the moment think of any way to save these lines, whatever the names of the Trees are.

NA-RG-87: I would just replace "Cor" with "Tirion".

NA-SL-18: I'm not sure about "chief friend of mine"; I don't think that retaining the word "chief" is desirable if in an altered meaning. Perhaps:

'NA-SL-18{O Húrin's child chief of Hithlum,}[O Child of Men whom chance led hither,]

NA-RG-91: No idea here.

NA-RG-94: I think that "Valar" would be preferable to "Great", unless a precedent can be found for referring to the Valar this way.

NA-RG-95, -96: I wonder about:

Thus NA-RG-95{Fuilin}[Guilin] and NA-RG-96{Flinding}[Gwindor] {friendship} [guest-kindliness] showed him,

The only possible problem there would be the length of the second half-line. But I don't think it's unreasonably long. Or perhaps some other way can be found of using "guest-kindliness" here; it's a good word and a perfect substitute for "friendship" in this context.

NA-RG-97: There's another spelling error here - should be "friends".

NA-SL-20: It's a minor point, but I don't think we need the accute accent on the second syllable of "handled". I wonder about "drawn and handled"; it sounds a little awkward to me, but I may be reading this too critically.

NA-SL-21: I would make line 2173:

neath trees enchanted}of deeds in the forest; then his tongue faltered

But there is the further problem here that we cannot alliterate on the second accented syllable of the second half-line. I also wonder why they should ask him about deeds in a "forest" if they did not know that he had once lived in Doriath. We might try:

neath trees enchanted}of his former deeds; then [faltered] his tongue {faltered}