The Silmarillion Survivor

[mormegil]

So we are opposed to voting off Feanor because it's not his fault he's a prat but we will kick Ingwe off because he was actually loyal and obedient and Melkor found that they could not be twisted to his evil ways so he more or less left them alone. Interesting!

Ingwe is great, I think he is rather one of the more intelligent of the elves. He never faltered in his decisions and he held his people together. They were able to live in happiness because they never left Valinor. He sounds like a great ruler to me.

[the phantom]

Ingwe off because he was actually loyal and obedient and Melkor found that they could not be twisted to his evil ways

If Melkor would've made Ingwe and the Vanyar his focus he would've eventually gotten to them too. The only reason he didn't was because, as you said, "he more or less left them alone".

No elf could remain unchanged if Melkor turned his full concentration their way.

However, I never suggested voting off Ingwe. I agree that he should be kept around. ALL THE ELVES SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE THIS ROUND!!

The whole incident with Melkor and the trees was started by the Valar. If you are going to vote anyone off, vote one of them off. I would suggest Manwe, who, according to Tolkien himself, has no creativity and can't deal with perilous situations.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I'm tempted to switch to Manwe, but only if my fellow anti-Ingweists give the go-ahead...

I'd prefer to keep Manwe for the time being. Although his judgment may be off sometimes, he provides firm leadership, which is extremely useful in these situations. Melkor is already sowing the seeds of discontent. Without Manwe to keep the other Valar in line, the whole camp could descend into chaos. Interesting viewing perhaps, but not very condusive to task completion. And you never know when those Eagles may come in handy.

Originally Posted by mormegil

So we are opposed to voting off Feanor because it's not his fault he's a prat but we will kick Ingwe off because he was actually loyal and obedient and Melkor found that they could not be twisted to his evil ways so he more or less left them alone. Interesting!

No. We want to kick Ingwe off because, while he may be loyal and good and worthy and all that, he makes dreadfully dull viewing. I mean, name one thing of note that he ever did that did not involve going with the status quo and staying put (like a pudding, as Lal put it. ).

Feanor, on the other hand, makes compelling viewing, whatever you may think of him personally.

That said, I am not averse to the idea of booting out one of the many Noldorin Elves. My inclination would be to go for Amrod or Amras - who are, let's face it, pretty interchangeable.

[the phantom]

And you never know when those Eagles may come in handy.

We don't need Manwe's eagles.

We have Tilion and Arien. They can handle all the up-in-the-air stuff. And later, we'll have Earendil. And if we are really in desperate need of air power, we can have Melkor make a batch of dragons.

he provides firm leadership

What good is Manwe's leadership if he's leading in the wrong direction? Not to mention, he freezes up and goes blank in difficult situations.

Melkor is a better leader. Sure, he's affiliated with evil, but according to the text he has a share of the gifts of all of his fellow Valar. That means that he can somewhat relate to all of them, and can understand what his fellow Valar are capable of, therefore he would be better than anyone at directing them.

And as far as him sowing seeds of discord, he wouldn't be doing that if everyone agreed to follow him, would he?

We need to get rid of Manwe while we have the chance!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

We have Tilion and Arien. They can handle all the up-in-the-air stuff. And later, we'll have Earendil.

While they may be good for carting heavenly bodies and the like around the skies, they are not much use when it comes to the precision stuff, like aerial reconaissance, rescue missions and personnel/cargo transport.

Originally Posted by the phantom

And if we are really in desperate need of air power, we can have Melkor make a batch of dragons.

Problem is, we'll have to wait a long time while he works his way through the wingless prototypes. Then again, Balrogs have wings, don't they? Perhaps we could rely on them ...

But no, I think Manwe should stay for now. Later, if and when Thorondor joins the show and another potential leader has emerged, I will not be averse to the idea of booting him out.

As for Melkor, I am not sure about him being appointed leader. I don't know, but there's just something about that guy that I don't trust.

[mormegil]

But we would need Manwe's eagles for the protection of Gondolin, which is my favorite Nolorian city.

[Lalaith]

And if we get rid of the blond ponce, the Vanyar might elect another, slightly less obsequious leader to replace him.

That Indis always had potential, I thought...I mean, look at her kids and her grandkids, they turned out pretty good...the best of the Noldor...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It might have been Ingwe's idea to throw a party, but since there is no evidence I hold Manwe responsibel !

++Manwe

[the phantom]

the precision stuff, like aerial reconaissance, rescue missions and personnel/cargo transport

we would need Manwe's eagles for the protection of Gondolin

You know, I just thought- why would booting Manwe out get rid of the Eagles?

The eagles don't live and die with Manwe. They have their own life.

Don't you think it would be a good thing to get the eagles out from under the inept thumb of Manwe. I imagine whoever was elected as the new Valar leader would wield the eagles more wisely.

[mormegil]

One other important thing we are forgetting if Manwe is gone will Gandalf ever come to M-e? I don't thing anybody but the powerful leader Manwe could have convinced him to come.