Feanor Self-Important?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I don't want to enter into a blame Feanor/forgive Feanor debate (which I think is a highly subjective thing),

Wouldn't such a debate be rather ridiculous? In order for Feanor to require for forgiveness, he must first be responsible for having done wrong (ie. be blamed).

A very minor point, mainly pointed out for its amusement factor.

[Aiwendil]

Well, you can play semantic games with "forgive", "excuse", "blame", and so on. It all depends on how you want to formally define the terms, which is arbitrary. But in ordinary discourse, they are vague and can take on a number of subtly different meanings.

[Felagund]

So, this comes to mind... were the Noldor not the slavation of Men? Imagine had they never sailed out of Aman, that Fëanor had been placated, everyone went back to their peaceful little existence in Tirion upon Tuna, or the slopes of Taniquetil, or on the shores of the Bay of Eldamar... then what of Men?

They would not have been exposed to the Eldar in Middle-Earth, merely the Sindar and the Nandor, and would not have probably become as noble as they did. And that's the least of it... They obviously would have been subjugated by Morgoth. Unquestionably. You think the Valar would have come to their aid? You bet your cute little elfy behinds they wouldn't have. Even the Sindar, who were next in line in power and wisdom to the Eldar were left to what would have been their eventual doom.

And now... imagine complete domination of Middle-Earth by Morgoth. Valinor, by default, becomes an outpost in an altogether hostile world. Eventually, Morgoth builds up a huge host of Orcs and evil Men( he has all of the world's life-span in which to do it, mind you. And both orcs and men breed much faster than elves. It's a game of numbers, in which the Eldar and Valar quickly become outstripped) and finds some way to cross the Great Sea... and assaults Valinor. Inevitably, Valinor is overrun, the Valar are dragged to Angband in chains and locked in the deepest pits under the Iron Mountains. The Eldar are enslaved or slain, and the world is Morgoth's until the great ending. Pretty picture huh?

So, now let us look at the results of Fëanor's "rebellion" (which was obviously divinely inspired). The Noldor arrive in Middle-Earth, and sap the power of Morgoth (and themselves, but that's not the issue), and occupy his attentions, so that he has not time to utterly corrupt the houses of Men migrating westwards. The three houses of the Edain meet the Noldor in Beleriand, and join the fight against Morgoth. The also receive some of the power and wisdom that the Noldor have to give, and, though almost utterly destroyed in the War of the Jewels, ultimately survive to found Numenor. Then they come to Middle-Earth, and free it from the domination of Sauron. Twice (one time helped by midgets, but whatever).

Now, that's looking rather far afield, but without Fëanor's rebellion...
a) the story would not be allowed to unfold in the way it did
b) Valinor would have been conquered by Morgoth, after he had sufficiently gathered enough strength and sorcery to overcome the combined might of the Valar (which he would have enough time to do, without being occupied with a costly war against semi-divine, pointy-eared beings).
Thoughts? I spent alot of time hewing caves in silence thinking about this one.



"Their oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures they have sworn to pursue."

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Felagund

And now... imagine complete domination of Middle-Earth by Morgoth. Valinor, by default, becomes an outpost in an altogether hostile world. Eventually, Morgoth builds up a huge host of Orcs and evil Men( he has all of the world's life-span in which to do it, mind you. And both orcs and men breed much faster than elves. It's a game of numbers, in which the Eldar and Valar quickly become outstripped) and finds some way to cross the Great Sea... and assaults Valinor. Inevitably, Valinor is overrun, the Valar are dragged to Angband in chains and locked in the deepest pits under the Iron Mountains. The Eldar are enslaved or slain, and the world is Morgoth's until the great ending. Pretty picture huh?

Getting right down to it, an assault on Valinor did happen. Except it was not during Morgoth's time. The Numenoreans, led by Ar-Pharazon, were corrupted by Sauron and enticed to make war on Valinor. They set sail to assault the Undying Lands, and would have caused great havoc, had they been challenged on the shore. Here's what happened.

From Akallabeth
But pride was now [Ar-Pharazon's] master, and at last he left his ship and strode upon the shore, claiming the land for his own, if none should do battle for it. And a host of the Numenoreans encamped in might about Tuna, whence all the Eldar had fled.

Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; a great chasm opened in the sea between Numenor and the Deathless Lands, and the waters flowed down into it, and the noise and smoke of the cataracts went up to heaven, and the world was shaken. And all the fleets of the Numenoreans were drawn down into the abyss, and they were drowned and swallowed up for ever. But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills; there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.

So really Feanor has little to do with whether or not Valinor is assaulted.

But you do make a good point about him 'saving' Men from Morgoth. Without the Noldor to keep Morgoth at bay, he would have overrun Middle-Earth and all Men would have either been under him or destroyed for rebelling. The Dwarves also would likely have been destroyed, too, although it would have taken much more time. They had already been in Middle-Earth for some time, and had significant fortresses and cities. They would have held out much longer than Men.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Felagund

You think the Valar would have come to their aid? You bet your cute little elfy behinds they wouldn't have.

What evidence or proof do we have of this? Are you saying that the Valar cared little or nothing of the Edain? Feanor putting his little plan into action more than likely changed the course of thought of the Valar and they couldn't not aid them and stated so

No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you' for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Feanor Finwe's son, by thine oath are exiled. The lies of Melkor thoug shalt unlearn in bitterness.

Men came to the aid of the Noldor and thereby were unable to receive the aid of the Valar in that quest. Had Feanor never embarked on such a futile quest, who knows what the Valar would have done in their councils. Did they not come in the end and did they not once before defeat Melkor for the benefit of one of Eru's children, why not then the second born? To say the Valar would not aid the Edain is a bit specious and not in harmony with the greatness of spirit of the Valar.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by mormegil

What evidence or proof do we have of this? Are you saying that the Valar cared little or nothing of the Edain?

That's about the size of it. The Valar treated the coming of Men like a dirty secret, hiding it from the Firstborn so that they could stay in their pretty isolationist bubble with their equally pretty Elves. They helped only when the Eldar and Edain were wellnigh destroyed, even then with a display of might that was intended to awe Elves and Men into submission, destroying the lands the Noldor, Sindar and Edain had nurtured.

To say the Valar would not aid the Edain is a bit specious and not in harmony with the greatness of spirit of the Valar.

When do we see this greatness of spirit? No redress was offered to Feanor for the fact that a prisoner the Valar had released killed his father. The Teleri were set against a departure that the Noldor had to make as a result. No aid was given to the Noldor who crossed the Helcaraxe, almost all of whom were innocent of Telerin blood. The Valar gave little help in the wars against Morgoth, with the single honourable exception of Ulmo; by doing this they allowed the Edain to suffer. Without the intervention of Eru they would have separated Beren and Luthien. They refused and drowned the mariners who sailed with Voronwe. And so it goes on.

[The Saucepan Man]

The question for me is whether the departure of the Noldor from Valinor necessarily required the crimes which Feanor was undoubtedly guilty of to be committed.

I think not.

Admittedly, it was Feanor's strength of will and fiery spirit which sparked the impulse to leave. But is it not possible that the same result (in terms of saving the Edain from the clutches of Morgoth) could have been achieved with less grief and anguish had Feanor tempered his impulsiveness with a touch of humility? Perhaps, had he not spoken in such forthright and angry terms, the Valar would have permitted the Noldor to depart and sanctioned the use of Teleri ships for that purpose.

And, even if not, was the burning of the ships (Feanor's greatest crime, in my opinion) really necessary? It was Feanor's arrogance and self-importance which led him to order that this deed be done, thus precipitating great suffering and loss among the following Noldorin host.

[mormegil]

When do we see this greatness of spirit?

A couple of things come to my mind instantly with that question. These were they who were willing to leave the presence of Illuvatar and come down to help set in order the arrival of his children.

The fact that they had belief in Melkor to set him free shows not ignorance but greatness of spirit. Believing that any could be given a second chance and reform.

As far as redress to Feanor, it was not they who committed the act so what redress do you mean. Also if you remember Feanor didn't give them much time to even think about that before he went and swore his little oath.

The Teleri were set against a departure that the Noldor had to make as a result.

The Noldor didn't have to make any such departure. Feanor and his sons did due to their oath but Finarfin and his host did not make such a depature. And as I already quoted the Valar told the Noldor before they went away that they would receive no aid from them in this quest. So the host that crossed the Helcaraxe were going forward to still be part of Feanor's overall quest.

Without the intervention of Eru they would have separated Beren and Luthien.

This is a rather false claim. As we know Luthien sung before Mandos who was moved to pity and it is written:

But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Illuvatar. He went therefore to Manwe, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under the hand of Illuvatar; and Manwe sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Illuvatar was revealed.

It was through the Valar that Beren and Luthien's fate was able to be decided. They needed further insight and revelation. Again the greatness of their spirit is shown here; they knew that they didn't know all and were humble enough to ask.

All of this talk of Manwe being inept is rather ludicrious as this quote shows. Manwe was, by appointment from Eru, governor of all the land. So it comes to my mind that while not perfect, Eru trusted him to lead and maybe Feanor should have as well. If anybody had the right or position to know Eru's will is was Manwe and not Feanor.

Edit: Cross posted with SpM and I agree with what you said completely.