A rather silly question came up

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

In this regard, he is like Bilbo and Frodo, who were the only other two Ringbearers (or people who felt the attraction of the Ring) who did not fantasize about using it to make themselves more powerful than other people or rulers over them.

Didn't they...

I wonder.

What with all the discussion currently going on in the CbC discussions concerning Frodo and the Ring on Mount Doom, the use of the Ring on the slopes of Orodruin to cow- to control- Gollum, makes one wonder if Frodo actually did NOT fantasize about such things...

After all, he DID ask Galadriel about doing so...

Just a few thoughts.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Didn't they...

I wonder.

What with all the discussion currently going on in the CbC discussions concerning Frodo and the Ring on Mount Doom, the use of the Ring on the slopes of Orodruin to cow- to control- Gollum, makes one wonder if Frodo actually did NOT fantasize about such things...

After all, he DID ask Galadriel about doing so...

Just a few thoughts.

Indeed!

When I read the following quoted passage something clicked into place:

You have not tried. Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others.

Is some kind of 'training' of his will behind the scene when Frodo appears as a vision to Gollum with the 'wheel of fire' at his breast? It is not the first time he has attempted to make Gollum bow down before his 'will' either; in the Emyn Muil he reminded me of a dog trainer in the way he got Gollum to obey him. And he could also be quite forceful with Sam too...

[mormegil]

Is some kind of 'training' of his will behind the scene when Frodo appears as a vision to Gollum with the 'wheel of fire' at his breast? It is not the first time he has attempted to make Gollum bow down before his 'will' either; in the Emyn Muil he reminded me of a dog trainer in the way he got Gollum to obey him. And he could also be quite forceful with Sam too...

I think it might also come to a question about righteous dominion or unrighteous dominion and whether or not the ring was in Frodo's thought at the time. I think these instances are more exhibiting the power that Frodo himself gained through personal struggle and growth and not directly related to the ring. An analogous example comes to mind when Gandalf spoke fiercely and directly with Bilbo to "help" him get rid of the ring. It was a dominion of sorts but without aid of the ring and done for righteous purposes.

[Celebuial]

Originally Posted by mormegil

An analogous example comes to mind when Gandalf spoke fiercely and directly with Bilbo to "help" him get rid of the ring. It was a dominion of sorts but without aid of the ring and done for righteous purposes.

I always got the impression that Gandalf WAS using The Ring Here... Well not The Ring but Narya... Isn't that what he uses it for? To instill hope in the hearts of Men (and Hobbits I guess)?

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Celebuial

I always got the impression that Gandalf WAS using The Ring Here... Well not The Ring but Narya... Isn't that what he uses it for? To instill hope in the hearts of Men (and Hobbits I guess)?

While the "uncloaking" gag runs rampant on Crazy Captions there really is a serious side to it and that is what begins to happen here. I'm not so sure that Gandalf uses Narya here but rather he uses his own innate power that has been restricted. He begins to use some of his actual power that is in his own being and threatens to use more of it if needed. After all this was Gandalf's purpose in coming to Middle-earth and though he didn't fully know that it was the one ring but I believe he had some inkling that it is and felt that Bilbo needed to be rid of the ring deep enough in his heart that he used some of his power to accomplish this.

[Celebuial]

Umm... that makes sense... I was always a little confused as to why Gandalf needed to have Narya at all... Was he merely keeping it safe? Sounds a little like he just needed some kind of confidance boost and a little more self belief, or rather something to convince himself to use his own power-although it is rather amusing to imagine Gandalf using Narya in this way.... Hmmm.... A little off topic but, I think a very interesting question is how much of his power is Gandalf allowed to use? And when does he actually use it? I was under the impresion that he was only supposed to influence the inhabitants of Middle-earth through words of council...

[Gothmog]

I'm sorry if I follow the off-topic question here but I hope you forgive me.

I was under the impresion that he was only supposed to influence the inhabitants of Middle-earth through words of council...

That's my impression too. I'd have to look it up, but isn't that the Istari's task in ME? They weren't supposed to go straight to Sauron and fight him til the death of either him or the wizards. The Valar didn't want to interfere with the dealings of men too much. The men had turned they're backs at Valar and they were on their own. But still the Powers sent a little help an guidance in the form of Istari.

Speaking of Gandalf and the elven rings: Narya was the Red Ring of Fire and fire was a bit of a speciality of Gandalf. Remember the fireworks? Or when he interrogated Gollum and put fear in him using fire magic. Or challenging Durin's Bane presenting himself as a servant of the secret fire. Maybe Narya enhanced Gandalf's powers, but he didn't use it "actively"?

And a little more on-topic: I doubt any mortal could have controlled the One enough to control the Three. The ring itself would soon take over completely. Not even Gandalf or Galadriel dares touch the ring because they know they might not resist the temptation of power. They could not control it, how could Gollum have?