What happened at Mount Doom?

[Eonwe]

hmmm. i don't quite get the whole "eru is a murderer" arguement. Sauron was created as a fair being, a maia, to server the Valar. He was corrupted by Morgoth, but in reality, he made the choice to forsake the Valar (and Eru's will). Then, he was pardoned by the Valar, when they had every right to throw him into the Void. (And i think this would have been in concordance with Eru's will, just as it was to have Morgoth thrown into the Void.) But he scorned the Valar's free pardon and sank back into his old rebellion. I think any of these things are worthy of the wrath and doom of eru.

And i don't think that Eru can be guilty of "subjecting the poor soul of Gollum to hundreds of years of pain and suffering". Gollum could do anything he wanted. He could have thrown it away, or he could have not murdered Deagol (which is why, according to Gandalf, the ring had such a malicious effect on him, as oppsed to Bilbo's more benine effects), he could have passed it on, or any number of things. The fact is, he wanted to keep the ring, and this caused him to forsake all the things he loved (family, sunlight, trees, fields, etc.) and hide under teh mountains, where he was transformed into what we know of as gollum.

Now, obviously the ring was a huge tempteation, but it was not unconquorable. Gandalf had nothing to do with it, even when it was freely offered him. Same for Galadriel. So i think that the blame for gollum falls squarely on his shoulders. Especially when he could have stayed nicely in Mirkwood eating elvin food and sleeping in elvin comfort. Like sauron, he decided to return to rebellion and misdeeds.

I don't think you can hold Eru responsible for the choices gollum made. I think the slipping into the Cracks of Doom were the direct results of passed actions on Gollom's part. (if he had only left deagol alone, if he had only stayed in mirkwood, etc.)

[drigel]

Eonwe good points. I brought that question up because of the Eru as murderer topic. It's the whole free will issue, and how/why evil is allowed to happen. It's all so subjective and relative. Its a very human debate especially concerning the ringbearers. But, for arguments sake, let's conjecture.

If one subscribes to the idea that it's all free will, then the only other strength to the argument is chaos. It was a dumb-luck random event that Deagol saw something shiny in the river. Bilbo's hand fell on to the ring by sheer coincidence. Bilbo being on the Quest of Erebor just a happenstance, etc.

No example of free will there, right? Dont even bring up what the ring willed (lol). The insertion of magical or fantastic elements just muddies up the picture to me. In this case, IMHO, the only thing the ring brings to the story at this point is that it is an actual physical manifistation of Evil on earth. The "free" choices made at Mt Doom by Frodo and Gollum are exactly the same: we are fallen creatures all of us.

I dont read a lot of preachy overtones in the works, but I do subscribe to the idea that Gollum's life and death, as was Sauron's, Aragorn's, Galadriel's, Morgoth's etc etc were all part of Eru's plan. They all intertwine and they all had a purpose to fufill. Eru nudged Gollum, as much as he whispered in Gandalf's ear that Bilbo needed to go on the Quest.

I go for A and B

[mormegil]

I choose that Eru willed it because of one main factor. As I have stated elsewhere if there is anyone that had right to know the will of Eru it would be Manwe. Well Manwe wasn't in Middle-earth at the time but his servant was. That to me means that Gandalf, as Manwe's servant and obviously the most "righteous" of the Istari, would be the logical choice for the recipient of what Eru's will would be. I believe he knew a bit of the will of Eru when he said

I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells
me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and
when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not
least.

It is obvious here that Gandalf has some inkling here of Eru's will though he knows not what part Gollum will play he knows that Eru's will is set that Gollum will play a part.

And I don't believe that this makes Eru a murder in the least. His will is divine and without fault. Therefore when he gives life it's also his to take away whenever he deems it fit.