LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 5 - The Steward and the King

[B]A good question of Davem does somebody know what Gandalf meaned when he said he was also a steward[/B]
I don't think Gandalf said that without reason.

[Bêthberry]

Oh, gosh. *sniffle, sniffle* Don't you all just love a beautiful wedding? And two! *hands around the kleenexes* And the brides both look so lovely, don't they?

Shakespeare had it all wrong. Faramir is the kind of man who tames the shrew, not Petruccio.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Oh, gosh. *sniffle, sniffle* Don't you all just love a beautiful wedding? And two! *hands around the kleenexes* And the brides both look so lovely, don't they?

Shakespeare had it all wrong. Faramir is the kind of man who tames the shrew, not Petruccio.

As usual, Bb's glib comments have sparked an actual non-glib idea...

I'm not sure that Petruccio and Faramir really depend upon tactics that are all that different. Petruccio isolates Kate from her family and her homeland, reduces her to a state of physical weakness with lack of sleep and food, and then teaches her the value of a good joke. Now let's see, Eowyn is:

1) trapped in the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith; uncle dead, love interest and brother gone to war,

2) physically weakened by her battle with the Nazgul and fading fast,

3) preternaturally grim until Faramir is able to lighten her mood and convince her to laugh.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fordim

I find this most distressing with Eowyn, insofar as what she gives up is the very character and dynamic presence that has made her so interesting in the story. I think it's safe to say that Eowyn is a favourite with most of the book's readers, and I daresay that what they -- like I -- like about her is her tragic and impassioned outcry against the constraints that are thrown about women in her world...and yet here at the end she gives up that tragic and impassioned outcry and happily adopts that constrained identity. It is just too jarring.

I think the aspect of this moment that I find the most difficult to accept is Eowyn's clear belief that to give up on her desire to be a queen is the equivalent of forsaking any desire to have power other than a very traditionally 'feminine' sort (healing, etc). It's almost as though she is saying that her desire for 'masculine' modes of power and action (agency) are as innappropriate as her desire to become queen -- that her desire to move in a male realm of action is a kind of usurpation of a role that is not hers by rights.

Looking at the text from a feminist perspective this is exactly what you would see, but there are different things to see. I never get the feeling that Eowyn has in any way 'sold out' when she agrees to living a quieter life, partly because I saw her episode as a warrior as somewhat symbolic.

Eowyn could be viewed as representative of Tolkien's view of what war did to a certain type of person. She is a person without purpose before Aragorn comes along, she is also trapped, and very much told what to do with her life. Along comes Aragorn, a man stepped right out of myth and legend as Eomer sees him, and quite likely this is how Eowyn too views him. He walks in to Edoras as an inspiring figure, and she is most definitely inspired. She becomes an Ara-fan.

Eowyn loves Aragorn, but in what way does she love him? If Eowyn had been a youth she might well have fallen in love with Aragorn all the same, and just the same, she might have yearned to go off and fight with him, or at the very least, for him. When Aragorn is through with inspiring the Men of Rohan, off he goes, but he will not allow Eowyn to come along - she has another role to fulfill as he sees it. Likewise, her Uncle has given her the important job of looking after Rohan in his absence. In this respect, Eowyn is like the younger son of a king, the one who is the 'spare' to the 'heir'; she could also be seen as a page, told to stay behind and look after the tents when battle looms.

Nevertheles she goes off to fight, and in the battle with the Witch King she is hurt. She revelas she is a woman on the battlefield as if to underline her difference to the seasoned soldiers, and in the Houses of Healing, again Tolkien underlines her beauty and her fragility.

What this all reminds me of is a message about war. Eowyn is a figure to represent the young who race off to war, fervent and keen, but not necessarily understanding that death really is final; it might be glorious, but it is also grim and dirty. In WWI there were many youths who lied about their age so they could fight. In WW2, young men fresh from their grammar schools were recruited to be RAF crew, the more 'glamorous' end of the British armed forces; many of them died on their first mission, few lived through a whole campaign. I'm sure there are stories like this from every war.

Rather than being a miraculous virago/amazon figure, instead I find that Eowyn represents more the young man with his passion to fight, to do his bit, stirred by inspiring tales or leaders to sign up. Then she is shown to play her part, but to be hurt in the process.

Pairing her with Faramir is even more interesting, as he seems to represent the experienced soldier who has 'seen it all'. He has seen the fervent youths join up and be killed. To him, war is something which must be got through in one piece, something to be survived. When he meets Eowyn, on a symbolic level it is like the meeting of the older soldier with the younger one, and his greater experience of war, of the grim realities of war, brings into focus the experiences the other has just gone through.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Pairing her with Faramir is even more interesting, as he seems to represent the experienced soldier who has 'seen it all'. He has seen the fervent youths join up and be killed. To him, war is something which must be got through in one piece, something to be survived. When he meets Eowyn, on a symbolic level it is like the meeting of the older soldier with the younger one, and his greater experience of war, of the grim realities of war, brings into focus the experiences the other has just gone through.

Made me think of The Homecoming of Beortnoth, & the conversation between Torthelm, the idealistic young man with a head full of heroic lays, & Tidwald, the old soldier who knows the reality of war:

TORTHELM: Offa! he's silenced. Not all liked him;
Many would have muzzled him, had master let them
'There are cravens at council that crow proudly
with the hearts of hens'; so I hear he said
at the Lords meeting. As lays remind us:
'What at the mead man vows, when morning comes
let him with deeds answer, or his drink vomit
and a sot be shown.' But the songs wither,
and the world worsens. & the lazy thralls,
cooks & sutlers! By the Cross, Tida,
I loved him no less than any lord with him;
and a poor freeman may prove in the end
more tough when tested than titled earls
who count back their kin to kings ere Woden.

TIDWALD: 'You can talk, Totta! Your time'll come,
& it'll look less easy than lays make it.
Bitter taste has iron, & the bite of swords
is cruel & cold, when you come to it.
The God guard you, if your glees falter!
When your shield is shivered, between shame & death
is hard choosing.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Rather than being a miraculous virago/amazon figure, instead I find that Eowyn represents more the young man with his passion to fight, to do his bit, stirred by inspiring tales or leaders to sign up. Then she is shown to play her part, but to be hurt in the process.

So the only way to make her an interesting character whose transformation makes sense is to remove her gender completely? Eowyn is interesting and compelling because she is not 'really' a woman at all, but a stand in for a kind or type of masculinity?

Hmmmmmmm

[Alphaelin]

Yay, I got back home in time to join the discussion of this chapter! Faramir and Eowyn are two of my favorite characters. I suppose I am a Faramir swooner -- looks, kindness, courage, integrity -- sigh. No wonder I lost my heart to him when I was fourteen, lol.

I enjoy the idea of Faramir trying to pump both the Warden and Merry for information about Eowyn right after their first meeting, too. I'm not sure if it's osanwë ability or an immediate crush, though.

All swooning aside, the Faramir/Eowyn story draws me in more than the Aragorn/Arwen story, simply because it is more fleshed out. You get an idea that as they are meeting and talking every day, their mutual liking and respect is growing into love, albeit unrecognized by Eowyn at first. Then there's that wonderful description as they wait for 'they know not what':

And so they stood on the walls of the City of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air.

To me, this sentence foreshadows the 'mingling' of their souls in marriage and is a beautiful image.

Originally Posted by Fordim
I find this most distressing with Eowyn, insofar as what she gives up is the very character and dynamic presence that has made her so interesting in the story.

How interesting that you think the masculine 'warrior role' is so much more interesting and dynamic than the traditional female 'healer role', Fordim I know a lot of doctors and nurses who might not agree with you.

Like Lalwende , I think there is some symbolism that can be attached to Eowyn's development, but I guess my ideas focus on how she sees her masculine/feminine sides. Prior to her entrance into the story in TTT, Eowyn was forced into the role of Theoden's caregiver, in which her role "seemed more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on", while the boys all got to go outside and play with their spears and horsies and chase Orcs. This is the stereotypical 'traditional female role' where the woman's job is to be quiet and wait on the menfolk. As an outlet for her feminine side, it is an exerise in frustration for her. When, in her despair, she takes up her sword and follows Theoden into battle, there is an element of following her masculine side. She's able to harness her 'masculine' skills with tremendous success, but finds that living through her masculine side brings her the fame she wanted, yet not the love she wanted.

Finally, when she is able to accept and return the love of Faramir she is willing to turn to her feminine side again, possibly because she feels Faramir values all of her. He never asks her to give up her sword! Now she's going to learn the skills of healing, just as she learned the skills of riding and swordplay. She ends her story with the prospect of living as a woman in balance, having the powers of both life and death in her hands. In this way, she is the perfect match for Faramir, who already has been described as balancing love of lore and his own skills as an officer.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fordim

So the only way to make her an interesting character whose transformation makes sense is to remove her gender completely? Eowyn is interesting and compelling because she is not 'really' a woman at all, but a stand in for a kind or type of masculinity?

Not at all. I think Tolkien wished to show (not just through Eowyn) the horror of warfare through the effects it had on a character. He could have had Eomer's younger brother, a young man filled with ideas about what war might do for him, about how doing great deeds, maybe even dying, would somehow fill the emptiness of his life. Instead Tolkien did something much more interesting. Instead of giving Eomer a younger brother, he gave him a sister. Having a woman on the battlefield even more sharply delineates the horrors of war, with our preconceived ideas about women participating in violent acts being somehow far more horrific - which are still strong to this day. And it also makes an interesting comparison with Faramir, who fights, but does not wish to fight.

Eowyn's take up of arms only more keenly demonstrates the horrors which Middle-earth faces. It does not matter if she is male or female, as she is there to represent youth, but the fact that she is a woman makes the image all the more powerful.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I'm sorry Lal but I'm just not on board with you here -- again, the comparison you are making is between Eowyn and an imaginary masculine figure (a younger brother) so it seems to me that you are still trying to 'rescue' Eowyn by having her stand in for a man. The fact that it is "more horrific" to see a woman at war than a man (and I'm not even sure that I agree with this, but I get that you are playing off of popular stereotypes without wanting to agree with them yourself) still doesn't alter the fact that you are seeing Eowyn's move into war as an essentiall masculine move: i.e. that she does not -- as a woman -- belong there and thus it is terrible that she goes there. I know, I know, nobody "belongs" in a war, but it's still pretty clear in the text and in your argument that men are more "properly" the warriors when forced into it.

So my original quibble with the narrative stands: Eowyn begins by rebelling against her constrained role as a woman by violating the boundaries put up between female and male by going to war; but she ends by announcing that it was wrong of her to go to war because she is a woman, and thus needs to move back into the constrained role that she originally rebelled against. Don't get me wrong, though, her life is immeasurably better being married to Faramir than under the thumb of Grima!! I just wish the transition had been more complex and allowed Eowyn some way to integrate her two identities (female/healer/home and male/warrior/road) rather than reject the latter in favour of a better version of the former.