Spiders?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I had to add this in out of interest. Ungoliant is then pursued by Balrogs and we see how she comes to go into hiding and mate with lesser spiders (if indeed she is a spider at all) and hence produce Shelob. What is amazing here is that Ungoliant may yet be alive!

A terrible thought... Yet it's unprobable. Just imagine what if she had popped up in The War of The Ring and joined forces with Sauron? Or her descendant Shelob? Or what if she had terrorized the free peoples on her own? Or turned out to be hiding in the Mirkwood and attacked wood elves or woodmen?

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

While I tend towards the theory that she is not of the Ainur, I don't think that we can definitively state that Ungoliant was not a Maia. The "darkness that lies about Arda" could still be part of Ea, the Universe, in which Arda lies, and which was created by the will of Eru. A Maiarin Ungoliant could therefore have entered Ea after it had been created and subsequently descended to Arda after the establishment of Manwe's kingdom.

At least some one in some way thinks along the same lines as I do...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

At least some one in some way thinks along the same lines as I do...

Well, I'm really just saying that Ungoliant may be a Maia, or she may not be. It's ambiguous so, in the absence of any further evidence, it's really up to the individual reader.

For myself, I prefer not to classify anything that is not one of the known races of Arda or animal invitably as an Ainu. I like to think that there are other possibilities, when it comes to the nature of beings such as Ungoliant, Huan and Thorondor.

[Gothmog]

Cross posted with both SpM and Lalwende in my last post...

What I tried to get through is that even if Ungoliant came from the Void, does that mean she's outside Eru's control?
Lalwende:

I think Bethberry is definitely on to something here, as the text clearly states that Ungoliant's origins are different to those of any other being. She is not Valar or Maia, as she did not come to Arda when they did, and she is not of Arda, as the text states she descended from the darkness. If Eru created Arda, then she cannot have been there already, as the Ents may have been. It seems she did come from the void, that place which is outside everything else. I like this, as it also tallies with my concept of her being something of a black hole in tangible, sentient form.

What I also like about this is that it allows for the possibility of other forms of existence outside Eru's control. Who knows which other enigmatic characters may have 'descended from the void'?!

What says that Eru didn't create the Void? And even if he didn't, things he created could dwell there. There was a time before Arda we can't forget. Arda is translated: The Realm and is according to Sil.

name of the Earth as the Kingdom of Manwe

Kingdom of Manwe, not Iluvatar. Arda is the creation of Eru through the song of Ainur. Eru doesn't lack control of everything outside Arda, Arda is a part of HIS realm.

But as Saucepan Man says, it's up to the reader. We don't know where Ungoliant came from, but the thought of her as equal of Eru seems farfetched. At least to me.

[Thinlómien]

Ungoliant as a revolting Ainu who didn't participate in the singing and dwelt in the Void before the creation of Arda but AFTER Eru created the Ainur looks to me like the most likely explanation. Or have I missed any suggestions of her existing before Ainur?

This needs clearing up. Not participating? Do you mean that:
* Eru didn't notice her not participating?
* Eru let her 'miss' the singing?
* Eru had no power to force her to sing?
All sound a bit strange to me... I suppose you had something else in mind.

And as Ungoliant as an equal with Eru sounds ridiculous. (No insult meant by this; I just think it doesn't fit Tolkien's image of one God.)

[Thinlómien]

I like to think that there are other possibilities, when it comes to the nature of beings such as Ungoliant, Huan and Thorondor.

Probably we should start a new thread about these "other possibilities"...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Tolkien, Silm

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made the first Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thoughts, and they were with him before aught else was made.

But if Ungoliant wasn't made?

I am the first to agree that this is very ambiguous, but not impossible. It exists not as something 'provable' or definite, but as an intangible suggestion. And it exists more probably also because of Tolkien's own interest in mythology.

There are many creation myths involving spiders or spiders as Tricksters--Anansi for example, from Africa. The intangible vagueness may simply represent the way in which Tolkien's imagination worked to incorporate his knowledge of mythology even while he was working within his own system of belief. Remember, we are not working with what we know of Tolkien's beliefs outside of the text; that can help us, but it does not in itself provide validation for what is in the created fantasy world. We are looking at the text and determining the values and system of belief within the subcreated world. References external to the text can be applicable, but they cannot by themselves exclude possibilities which the text might offer.

[Gothmog]

I see your point Bethberry, it depends on how literary you want to interpret the word made. And then we can discuss why Eru is called the One.

But I'm not going to discuss this further. It's up to every one of us what we want to believe and I'm going to leave it at that. In fact, none of us can prove anything, only try to convince others that what I hold for true is true, and as entertaining as it might seem it's really quite pointless. We've reached the point were most of the facts have been studied, right?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

I see your point Bethberry, it depends on how literary you want to interpret the word made. And then we can discuss why Eru is called the One.

But I'm not going to discuss this further. It's up to every one of us what we want to believe and I'm going to leave it at that. In fact, none of us can prove anything, only try to convince others that what I hold for true is true, and as entertaining as it might seem it's really quite pointless. We've reached the point were most of the facts have been studied, right?

As you wish. I won't even bite on your comment about Eru as the One (because that can be discussed).

However, I do want to point out that I am not here on a discussion forum to "convince others that what I hold for true is true." I am here to discuss ideas, not to promulgate my personal beliefs, nor to refute the personal beliefs of others.

And as for facts, well, the number of ways they can be studied is limited only by the limits of the human mind and imagination. After all, look what Fordim did with his poll on balrogs.

[Gothmog]

Actually, Thinlomien, I didn't have anything special in mind. But the thought of her singing with the other's feels to strange. At the same time, if she wasn't created at the creation of Arda (which she obviously wasn't), I prefer to think of her as one of Ainur, created by Eru. Why would Eru force her to sing? Let's assume she had a dark heart from the start and dwelled in the void far from the others. If she then decide not to participate in the singing then what would Eru win by forcing her? A destructive force in the creation of Arda?

But maybe she decided to join in the choir. There were voices that joined Melkor in his own melodies. She could have been corrupted during this singing. "In the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service." (look at post quotes below for full extract from silm.) Then she decided to stay in the void outside the world and not descend in to it immidietly. She might have dwelt in the Void before and after the creation of Arda.

Does any of this make sense? I'm not really fit for this right now... And yeah, let's discuss the "unknown forces of Arda" a year or two