Spiders?

[Gothmog]

I see your point Bethberry, it depends on how literary you want to interpret the word made. And then we can discuss why Eru is called the One.

But I'm not going to discuss this further. It's up to every one of us what we want to believe and I'm going to leave it at that. In fact, none of us can prove anything, only try to convince others that what I hold for true is true, and as entertaining as it might seem it's really quite pointless. We've reached the point were most of the facts have been studied, right?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

I see your point Bethberry, it depends on how literary you want to interpret the word made. And then we can discuss why Eru is called the One.

But I'm not going to discuss this further. It's up to every one of us what we want to believe and I'm going to leave it at that. In fact, none of us can prove anything, only try to convince others that what I hold for true is true, and as entertaining as it might seem it's really quite pointless. We've reached the point were most of the facts have been studied, right?

As you wish. I won't even bite on your comment about Eru as the One (because that can be discussed).

However, I do want to point out that I am not here on a discussion forum to "convince others that what I hold for true is true." I am here to discuss ideas, not to promulgate my personal beliefs, nor to refute the personal beliefs of others.

And as for facts, well, the number of ways they can be studied is limited only by the limits of the human mind and imagination. After all, look what Fordim did with his poll on balrogs.

[Gothmog]

Oh, I didn't mean the thing about "what I hold for true is true" the way it sounded Of course we're all here to discuss. And by sharing our own beliefs we often end up convincing others, or being convinced ourselves. Or we just end up discussing things til the end of times

So feel free to keep discussing. I felt that I had to few arguments and facts to keep arguing for my point of view. Besides, that's my point of view right now. Maybe I'll change my mind, but for now there's not enough to make me believe in a creating-all mighty-spider godess

P.S. I'd like to hear the discussion of "the One", but this might not be the best of places =)

[davem]

http://northernway.org/hgoddess.html

[Lalwendë]

Looking through HoME, Ungoliant is always given as having unknowable origins - some texts hint that she appeared in Arda when the Lamps were broken, but in the Book of Lost Tales something very interesting is said:

for here dwelt the primeval spirit Moru who even the Valar know not whence or when she came, and the folk of Earth have given her many names. Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy Seas, in the utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more like she has always been;

And in the commentary:

In the tale her origin is unknown, and though this element may be said to have remained in The Silmarillion..., by the device of 'Some have said...' a clear explanation is in fact given: she was a being from 'before the world', perverted by Melkor...The original idea of 'the primeval spirit Moru' is made explicit in an entry in the early word list of the Gnomish language, where the name Moru is defined as 'a name of the Primeval Night personified as Gwerlum or Gungliont'

This shows that the earliest intentions of Tolkien at least were to have Ungoliant as a being from outside Arda, maybe even to represent something which was not of Eru's making or control, as is suggested by 'Primeval Night'.

To me, looked at in this way Ungoliant is a truly amoral creature, something like a Trickster (though we also never see her take 'beautiful' form by way of charming those she meets). She is tricked into helping Melkor, via her greed (or maybe her needs?) but she shows him no allegiance. Ungoliant is a being from the older, darker Faerie.

Perhaps as Tolkien's legendarium developed there became less of a place for such an amoral creature so that eventually we were left only with vague hints of Ungoliant's true nature. Taking on board the idea that the stories were from the point of view of Elves and those on the definite side of 'Light', then there would not be room for a lack of a moral code in a creature, and there would not be room for a creature who was outside of the control or even creation of Eru.

[Formendacil]

Ungoliant may or may not be a Maia. The evidence would suggest, it seems, that it is not.

However, she is clearly not a being with an origin akin to Eru. She must, in my opinion, be a creature of his making (somehow) in origin.

My reasoning is that unless she is derived from Eru, then she is logically his peer. not necessarily His equal, but of the same level of being.

However, this simply does not fly, because Ungoliant is WEAKER than than the created creatures of Eru. She feared Melkor in his prime. She feared the Valar, and would not venture into Valinor without Melkor's coaxing and aid. She was also driven off by mere Balrogs.

Now, if Ungoliant was Eru's peer- no matter how weaker, she would not be in such fear of His creations, or in such danger from them.

So, in my opinion, Ungoliant must of necessity be a creation of Eru's of some sort. This does not necessarily make her an Ainu in origin. Or, if she was, then she is still not automatically relegated to a Vala or Maia status.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

However, this simply does not fly, because Ungoliant is WEAKER than than the created creatures of Eru. She feared Melkor in his prime. She feared the Valar, and would not venture into Valinor without Melkor's coaxing and aid. She was also driven off by mere Balrogs.

Now, if Ungoliant was Eru's peer- no matter how weaker, she would not be in such fear of His creations, or in such danger from them.

Very good point that she seems weaker because she fears Melkor and in particular, his Balrogs. And yes, she also fears the Valar, or more specifically, she fears to upset them.

But then this could equally point to the possibility that Ungoliant is indeed of a wholly different nature to any other being on Arda. I note that Tolkien makes the point that she was 'corrupted' by Melkor, and yet he still states that it was simply in her nature to weave her webs of Darkness. These webs do not seem to be inherently evil, just something which Ungoliant creates, and Melkor exploits.

She seems in some ways to be equated with Death. So just as Eru is Light and Life, Ungoliant could be his equal in Death and Darkness.