Misc. Questions

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Back up your argument, please. I am curious as to why you this... The following is more conjecture than definite evidence:

Besides, when was the last time you saw a balrog lose every fight it entered, with one of the losses being due to its own stupidity? That is proof enough.(No, Gothmog wasn't being stupid when he was killed if I recall correctly.)

Sauron may have beaten Huan if he didn't pull any stupid mistakes like he did in the Tale of Beren and Luthien.

Furthermore, how do you square that with this, from the "Valaquenta":



Overall, the passage could be used to support your thesis that Sauron was merely "more evil" than the Balrogs- but it appears to me to also be a clear statement as to the greater power of Sauron.

Furthermore, Sauron is called the "Lieutenant of Melkor"- and had the command of Angband before the breaking of Utumno.Again, I'd like to hear some evidence for your rather loud statement there...[/QUOTE]



The reason I believe a balrog would defeat Sauron is that Sauron, for all his names and titles, never won a single fight he entered. No offense to any Sauron fans out there, but after his screw-up in the Tale of Beren and Luthien, I doubt he was as great a captain or being everyone made him out to be. If anything, that event proved that he was incompetent and inexperienced. Morgoth also had no other dominating servants. He needed his balrogs on the battlefield, so he had no other choice. I doubt Morgoth would make an orc the leader of Angband.

Sauron was mighty in lore, not combat. Lieutenant is not the highest rank military wise. Also, if I am not mistaken, one reason Gandalf defeated the balrog was because it fell into the water, thus weakening it. Like someone said before, a reason Gandalf would not fight Sauron is the armies of Mordor and the nazgul. Gandalf may be a maia, but he isn't Superman.

A balrog is a great and powerful creature. Balrogs are warriors. Balrogs kill everything they see. If Sauron fought, say, Merry, he would laugh and make the fight linger, toying with Merry. If a balrog fought Pippin, for example, the balrog would just stomp him into the ground or slice him with its sword in one second. Who would you want to fight? A guy with many titles and an ego, or a giant, powerful creature that would kill you in a heartbeat?

This is just my opinion, and I am sorry if it offends you. If this topic should be continued, it should have its own thread, so that we don't end up ruining this thread.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

The reason I believe a balrog would defeat Sauron is that Sauron, for all his names and titles, never won a single fight he entered. No offense to any Sauron fans out there, but after his screw-up in the Tale of Beren and Luthien, I doubt he was as great a captain or being everyone made him out to be. If anything, that event proved that he was incompetent and inexperienced. Morgoth also had no other dominating servants. He needed his balrogs on the battlefield, so he had no other choice. I doubt Morgoth would make an orc the leader of Angband.

Sauron was mighty in lore, not combat. Lieutenant is not the highest rank military wise. Also, if I am not mistaken, one reason Gandalf defeated the balrog was because it fell into the water, thus weakening it. Like someone said before, a reason Gandalf would not fight Sauron is the armies of Mordor and the nazgul. Gandalf may be a maia, but he isn't Superman.

A balrog is a great and powerful creature. Balrogs are warriors. Balrogs kill everything they see. If Sauron fought, say, Merry, he would laugh and make the fight linger, toying with Merry. If a balrog fought Pippin, for example, the balrog would just stomp him into the ground or slice him with its sword in one second. Who would you want to fight? A guy with many titles and an ego, or a giant, powerful creature that would kill you in a heartbeat?

This is just my opinion, and I am sorry if it offends you. If this topic should be continued, it should have its own thread, so that we don't end up ruining this thread.

Ah, no offence, just disagreement.

You say that Balrogs are great and powerful creatures. I say that Sauron could have been if he wanted. He retained the power to change his form until the Fall of Numenor- whereas the Balrogs were bound in their shadow and flame.

What's to say that Sauron couldn't have made himself that way?

You say that Sauron never won a fight. True, but you'll notice that he GROWS in his knowledge about how to fight and who to fight. Sauron is a born survivor. It took Three Ages to kill him. If a Balrog loses a fight, the Balrog is done for.

You say that Sauron is smart, not strong. I say that smarts is strength.

I will admit that Sauron is less of a natural warrior than a Balrog- but I do not for one minute think that in a one-on-one fight that the Balrog would win, especially at the height of his power in the late Second Age. Sauron's ability to change form could have endowed him with something easily Balrog-equivalent (and Gandalf was able to fight the Balrog in Old Man form). Furthermore, Sauron's greater smarts would likely win through.

As my final argument, I present Sauron's death.

Yes, that's right, his death- the "death" at the hands of Gil-galad and Elendil.

"But... but... you say," Sauron was DEFEATED by them- what proof is that?"

I'll tell you what proof.

Morgoth's power was greater than any of his servants'- that is why, even after his power had been dispersed throughout the entire matter of Arda that he was still more powerful than pretty much any challenger (although, as the Host of the West showed, not quite). After his casting into the void, and the total separation from the power dispersed in Arda, he remained a complete person. Sauron, similarly, had a spirit great enough that even with the destruction of the Ring, containing the greater portion of his power, he remained "as an impotent spirit", so to speak.

There is never any similar connection made for a Balrog. Kill them and they're gone- just like those other, less-than-Sauron Maiar, the Istari.

[Gothmog]

I think it's wrong to decide how powerful a being is by stuying the battles he/she/it might have won. Just look at the fight between Fingolfin and Morgoth. Fingolfin challenged Morgoth and scared him. Morgoth didn't want to leave his safe halls of Angband, but was forced to. Then the battle began and Fingolfin attacked Morgoth time after time. Seven wounds he inflicted and Morgoth cried out every time. Then, being a bit tired, Fingolfin stumbled and was then crushed. But what if he hadn't stumbled? Does the fact that Fingolfin was equal to a Vala, the greatest of them, in battle imply that he was the equally powerful as Melkor? I think not.

So even if the outcome of a fight between for example Sauron and a Balrog could be predicted, that tells us nothing of how powerful either creature is. That depends on the meaning we put into the word "powerful".

If you want my opinion, I'd say Balrogs is greater in might, on the battlefield. They're one of the most terrifying creatures of Morgoth. But Sauron is more powerful in other ways. A Balrog is not fit to command armies, nor would thay have the power to snare men in nets of treachery or make powerful items like the One. Also, I think of Sauron as a great master of witchcraft. So to decide who's most powerful or mighty, we must decide what characteristics we're looking for.

[Marky Lazer]

Is the staff of Gandalf magical or not? Or is it a normal wooden staff, and comes the magic from the wizard himself?

[Gurthang]

That's an excellant question, Marky Lazer. Personally, I believe that Gandalf's staff, as well as the staves of the other wizards, were basically a tool. In the hands of the right person, it can be deadly, but with no skill to use it, it is useless. A wizard without a staff is not necessarily less powerful, but it is more difficult to transfer his power to reality(which would be called 'magic').

The staff is also a symbol, used to denote power and rank. The breaking of the staff is a way of saying someone has lost their rank or standing.

If you want to know more, try these:

Magic in Middle-Earth
Gandalf's Staff

Look especially at Essex's post (#27) in Gandalf's Staff. It's got a lot of good info.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Gurthang hit the nail right on the head. Good job. Losing rank is not always bad. Gandalf's staff broke before he fought the balrog and that was because he was unleashing his power.

Gothmog, saying Sauron was more of a witchcraft person is fairly accurate. The problem was that his ego made him think that he was a warrior as well. Combat wasn't his strong point and his ego would most likely prevent him from making himself a greater form, such as a troll or a creature akin to a balrog. Like you also said, it is hard to judge a character's skill or greatness by a fight. I'll share my comments on these things when a thread is made for them. Until then, let the questions continue.

[Marky Lazer]

Who awoke Durin's Bane?

Where it Durin's mithril diggers?
Or was it Sauron?

In Appendix A III (Durin's Folk) of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien hints that the Dwarves may in fact not have awoken the Balrog, but that instead it was the growing power of Sauron in nearby Dol Guldur that returned it to life. If this is true, then the Dwarves did no more than release the creature from its subterranean tomb. It is certainly notable that Durin's Bane appeared in the same year that the Nazgûl returned to Mordor.

"Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear."
Words of Glóin from
The Lord of the Rings 2 II The Council of Elrond