You say 'Faeries' & I say 'Fairies'

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

In short, I don't know.I go with the 'gateways' theory myself. Faery, for me, 'underlies' the world we experience with our physical senses, it is the 'archetype', the perfect 'unfallen' world from which this one devolved. . . .

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

That makes it synonymous with Eden for me, but I suppose that's just one of many myths with a once-upon-a-time unfallenness. But your view of Faery seems a tad idealized to me.

So it seems to me also, lmp, very idealised. However, I would ask davem just what he means by "perfect 'unfallen' world". As he has pointed out, many of the original 'fairies' are contemptuous, cruel and malicious and it is Tolkien who sanitizes them. (See his first post in this thread.) Perhaps davem could clarify what he means by this unfallenness.

[davem]

That makes it synonymous with Eden for me, but I suppose that's just one of many myths with a once-upon-a-time unfallenness. But your view of Faery seems a tad idealized to me.

Originally Posted by Bb

So it seems to me also, lmp, very idealised. However, I would ask davem just what he means by "perfect 'unfallen' world". As he has pointed out, many of the original 'fairies' are contemptuous, cruel and malicious and it is Tolkien who sanitizes them. (See his first post in this thread.) Perhaps davem could clarify what he means by this unfallenness.

'Fallen' away from its archetypal state. My problem is that you're both asking me to explain my experiences - I can't - I can only theorise about them & my theories may be wrong.

I feel that Faeries are 'children' of the earth & that Faery is not the human imagination but the imagination of the earth itself. I also feel that Tolkien spoke quite literally when he stated that the 'Secret Fire' was sent to dwell at the heart of the world, & that this is a 'spiritual' (ie conscious) fire & is the life & soul of the earth itself. If it has life & soul it seems reasonable to conjecture that it has imagination as well.

As for the traditional antagonism of the Fairy races to the human, I suspect that can be accounted for by our own antagonism towards the earth. As the 'primary' races of the Archetypal (Fairies) & devolved (Human) worlds, our task is perhaps to find a way to re-establish the harmony that once existed - perhaps that original harmony was what Tolkien was describing in his mythology. The two worlds are 'out of synch' & that may be the explanation for the disharmony.

Or I could be completely wrong - as I say, I'm attempting to construct an explanation for something that happened to me.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

I feel that Faeries are 'children' of the earth & that Faery is not the human imagination but the imagination of the earth itself. I also feel that Tolkien spoke quite literally when he stated that the 'Secret Fire' was sent to dwell at the heart of the world, & that this is a 'spiritual' (ie conscious) fire & is the life & soul of the earth itself. If it has life & soul it seems reasonable to conjecture that it has imagination as well.

I resonate with this more than you might expect. It falls in line with something I mentioned earlier on another thread: "mountains aren't rock, that's just what they're made of"; just so, the earth may be more than its inanimate elements. There's so much we don't perceive; a blind man can't prove the existence of green.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

As the 'primary' races of the Archetypal (Fairies) & devolved (Human) worlds, our task is perhaps to find a way to re-establish the harmony that once existed - perhaps that original harmony was what Tolkien was describing in his mythology. The two worlds are 'out of synch' & that may be the explanation for the disharmony.

Indeed I can quite understand your attempts here to explain your experience, but what I find interesting is this idea that once there was harmony, but now is disarray. What was it in your experience that caused you to perceive this state? Is it not possible that things always were in this state of disharmony and our desire for something Other suggests to us the possibility of rapproachment?

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

There's so much we don't perceive; a blind man can't prove the existence of green.

Very much so. Yet, yet, a blind man can smell green and sense it on the air and touch it, no? For some, sensations compensate for other loses.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Yet, yet, a blind man can smell green and sense it on the air and touch it, no? For some, sensations compensate for other losses.

And so it is with us and Faery? It seems that way, does it not?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

Indeed I can quite understand your attempts here to explain your experience, but what I find interesting is this idea that once there was harmony, but now is disarray. What was it in your experience that caused you to perceive this state? Is it not possible that things always were in this state of disharmony and our desire for something Other suggests to us the possibility of rapproachment?

My feeling is that all things arose out of a state of primal unity, & it also seems that according to all the traditional accounts Faery it is a world/realm that is closer to its natural state than our own. Hence, it seems to me that Faery represents some archetypal state which still exists & can be passed into & out of. To this extent it is very close to what we find in SoWM, but there is still an element missing from Tolkien's Faery, & that is the 'chaotic' dimension, the absence of 'rules' (I don't mean of rule breaking - which we find in his Orcs, Balrogs, Dragons, etc, but the absence of any rules to be broken).

(By the way, for anyone who's interested, the whole of Robert Kirk's Secret Commonwealth of Elves, Fauns & Fairies can be found here)

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

I don't mean of rule breaking - which we find in his Orcs, Balrogs, Dragons, etc, but the absence of any rules to be broken.

I know what you mean. It's the kind of thing that I really want to write about, but seems just beyond my grasp. Still, there can't be complete chaos, or Faery would be unliveable and not only in regard to humans. But cause & effect, immutability of solids (if you take my meaning); these would be up for grabs; transformation would be typical. And words fail to adequately convey my meaning.