You say 'Faeries' & I say 'Fairies'

[littlemanpoet]

It now begins to seem to me that Tolkien the modern made Faery acceptable to a modern, and therefore, scientific mind. Our contemporary imagination, having been baptized by Tolkien, has thereby been freed to move beyond the scientific mind to Faery as it is/was.

Which means, in a sense, that as the Star was to Smith, allowing passage to Faery, and as Faery was to Wootton Major, so Tolkien's Middle Earth is for us, allowing our minds to conceive of Faery as it is, and thus Faery can be to us as it was to Wootton Major? I don't know, but I hope so.

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

It now begins to seem to me that Tolkien the modern made Faery acceptable to a modern, and therefore, scientific mind. Our contemporary imagination, having been baptized by Tolkien, has thereby been freed to move beyond the scientific mind to Faery as it is/was.

Which means, in a sense, that as the Star was to Smith, allowing passage to Faery, and as Faery was to Wootton Major, so Tolkien's Middle Earth is for us, allowing our minds to conceive of Faery as it is, and thus Faery can be to us as it was to Wootton Major? I don't know, but I hope so.

Perhaps what Tolkien did was to make Faery 'acceptable' not the modern, scientific, mind but to the minds of people who, whether they are Christians or not, are products of 2,000 years of Christianity & have grown up with a Christian worldview.

In traditional. pre-Christian belief, there was no Satan, no personification of moral evil - there was life & death, good & bad, but no Good vs Evil. Tolkien 'Christianises' Faery by introducing Morgoth, a fallen Angel, & introduces a (Judeo) Christian element which from then on determines & defines that Faery as a Christian one - it couldn't have been otherwise once he'd made that decision.

The consequence was that Middle-earth would become the battleground in a moral war. Rather than the battle being an eternal one between light & dark, order & chaos, summer & winter which never ends, it becomes an extended war which will one day end in the victory of Good over Evil. There will be winners & losers.

We have all, Christian or not, absorbed that worldview, & so would have expected it, I suppose, in the Faery that Tolkien gave us. Yet, it is not traditional Faery - it is, for whatever (good?) reasons Tolkien had - an invention of his own. As I've repeatedly stated, though, what interests me is why he staked such a claim to traditional Faery (particularly in OFS), & presented himself as a writer within the tradition. He may have acted as a mediator between Faery & modern readers brought up in a Christian world, but was that his intention - is that how he saw his role? Did he think of himself as someone opening a door to traditional Faery, so that we could enter into that 'pre-Christian' world, 'freeing' us from Christian 'indoctrination' - or did he actually want to make Faery Christian - or at least make us see it in that way, as 'the best introduction to the Mountains'? Was he using Faery for his own, evangelical, purposes- we know that that was his original motivation (one only has to read Garth's book) but was that desire something he left behind?

I think its clear that Lewis desired to use Faery to evangelise (the Narnia stories at some points are little other than 'parables' designed to inspire/encourage their readers to be good Christians) - did Tolkien intend the same thing? I think its clear from his letters that if he didn't exactly intend it, he would not have been upset by the prospect.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

We have all, Christian or not, absorbed that worldview, & so would have expected it, I suppose, in the Faery that Tolkien gave us. Yet, it is not traditional Faery - it is, for whatever (good?) reasons Tolkien had - an invention of his own. As I've repeatedly stated, though, what interests me is why he staked such a claim to traditional Faery (particularly in OFS), & presented himself as a writer within the tradition.

Is it possible that he did indeed see himself that way, and saw no tension or contradiction, because the distinction you see had not been perceived in his time?

He may have acted as a mediator between Faery & modern readers brought up in a Christian world, but was that his intention - is that how he saw his role? ... Was he using Faery for his own, evangelical, purposes- we know that that was his original motivation (one only has to read Garth's book) but was that desire something he left behind?

I haven't read Garth, so your reference to him that he intended to evangelize, is something new to me. All other readings about Tolkien seemed to declare pretty strongly that Tolkien was actually against such efforts, and steered clear of it himself.

Did he think of himself as someone opening a door to traditional Faery, so that we could enter into that 'pre-Christian' world, 'freeing' us from Christian 'indoctrination' - or did he actually want to make Faery Christian - or at least make us see it in that way, as 'the best introduction to the Mountains'?

Yes to the former, no to the latter, in my opinion. However, Christianity was so ingrained in him that he couldn't write any other way and be true to himself.

[davem]

Originally Posted by LMP

I haven't read Garth, so your reference to him that he intended to evangelize, is something new to me. All other readings about Tolkien seemed to declare pretty strongly that Tolkien was actually against such efforts, and steered clear of it himself.

An old post of mine from the dreaded Canonicity thread :http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...&postcount=248

Of course, this was the young Tolkien, & he may have changed in his later years, but I think it shows that 'once upon a time' (before his crest fell) he certainly was inspired by a desire to 'evangelise' his fellow countrymen.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, this was the young Tolkien, & he may have changed in his later years, but I think it shows that 'once upon a time' (before his crest fell) he certainly was inspired by a desire to 'evangelise' his fellow countrymen.

Well, we do know that Tolkien insisted that Edith convert to Catholicism from Anglicanism to marry him at a time when the Church itself (herself?) never required that of Catholic spouses. The only requirement was to agree to raise the children Catholic. And according to Carpenter, Tolkien apparently had little sympathy for or was unable to appreciate the difficulties Edith faced because of that decision.

Yet this seems to be contradicted by Tolkien's statement of "consciously so in the revision", as that would suggest he only late in his long writerly thought came to see that.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Yet this seems to be contradicted by Tolkien's statement of "consciously so in the revision", as that would suggest he only late in his long writerly thought came to see that.

So much in SoWM seems to reflect a kind of post-Reformation Catholic yearning for 'Merrie England'. Once upon a time England had been Catholic, there was dancing & singing (& faeries) in the Greenwood & Morris Men & a Maypole on the Green. But then things changed & the wonder went away. Its so close to what happened in the Shire. Things had been perfect - before the Lotho's & Sharkeys came along, & made everything dull & bleak. The Elves were, in a roundabout way, responsible for the Shire's renaissance through Galadriel's gift to Sam, as they were in SoWM.

Tolkien's own 'allegorical' interpretation of SoWM makes this pretty blatant. Wooton Major has suffered its own reformation.

Well, we do know that Tolkien insisted that Edith convert to Catholicism from Anglicanism to marry him at a time when the Church itself (herself?) never required that of Catholic spouses. The only requirement was to agree to raise the children Catholic. And according to Carpenter, Tolkien apparently had little sympathy for or was unable to appreciate the difficulties Edith faced because of that decision.

I wonder whether Tolkien saw Edith's conversion as necesary in order to confirm her 'committment to the cause'. Certainly he seemed to consider Catholicism to be, if not the only, then definitely the best & purest form of Christianity (cf his disappointment when Lewis went back to the Anglicanism of his childhood rather than Catholicism - of course, he didn't have the same leverage with Jack as he had had with Edith )

[Lalwendë]

I think it is not entirely surprising that Tolkien was an ardent Catholic, seeing as his guardian as a child was a priest; not only that, but his mother's conversion and consequent struggle seems to have acquired mythical status. I also think that his request that Edith convert must have been partly due to keeping his guardian happy; it would have been the 'done thing' in his mind. Maybe had he been ten years older when he married he might have been less insistent.

Having had two grandmothers who were raised as Catholics and who 'became' Anglicans at marriage, I know for a fact that conversion may be an act put on to appease a partner, as one Grandmother remained in her heart a Catholic (and was buried with Rosary beads, in an Anglican graveyard). My point being that the Church a person outwardly belongs to is not necessarily all that important and other factors have a bearing.

Ronald Hutton raised the point that Tolkien himself seemed to allow his faith to lapse during the 20s and 30s, not going to mass or confession. He clearly had his own reasons for this, but it suggests that he may not have always been the devout Catholic we take him to be. Therefore, we might place too much importance on his Catholicism.

I think that rather than his Catholicism having a bearing on how he created and developed the Legendarium, it might be more appropriate to look at his own morals and how they came to bear on it. His Catholicism definitely shows through in some aspects (and I also think that in SOWM, in the light of what we now know about it, reference to his Catholicism is very appropriate), but his morals (wherever they may come from, Catholicism, Christianity as a whole, upbringing, experience etc.) are the larger influence.

I find that SOWM is different to the other texts as it seems to have hidden subtexts which have clear spiritual messages, whereas in LotR, The Sil etc., he has created something more self contained, with a morality and spirituality which can be understood without reference to his own beliefs. SOWM, on the other hand, is improved by application of other information.