You say 'Faeries' & I say 'Fairies'

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, this was the young Tolkien, & he may have changed in his later years, but I think it shows that 'once upon a time' (before his crest fell) he certainly was inspired by a desire to 'evangelise' his fellow countrymen.

Well, we do know that Tolkien insisted that Edith convert to Catholicism from Anglicanism to marry him at a time when the Church itself (herself?) never required that of Catholic spouses. The only requirement was to agree to raise the children Catholic. And according to Carpenter, Tolkien apparently had little sympathy for or was unable to appreciate the difficulties Edith faced because of that decision.

Yet this seems to be contradicted by Tolkien's statement of "consciously so in the revision", as that would suggest he only late in his long writerly thought came to see that.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Yet this seems to be contradicted by Tolkien's statement of "consciously so in the revision", as that would suggest he only late in his long writerly thought came to see that.

So much in SoWM seems to reflect a kind of post-Reformation Catholic yearning for 'Merrie England'. Once upon a time England had been Catholic, there was dancing & singing (& faeries) in the Greenwood & Morris Men & a Maypole on the Green. But then things changed & the wonder went away. Its so close to what happened in the Shire. Things had been perfect - before the Lotho's & Sharkeys came along, & made everything dull & bleak. The Elves were, in a roundabout way, responsible for the Shire's renaissance through Galadriel's gift to Sam, as they were in SoWM.

Tolkien's own 'allegorical' interpretation of SoWM makes this pretty blatant. Wooton Major has suffered its own reformation.

Well, we do know that Tolkien insisted that Edith convert to Catholicism from Anglicanism to marry him at a time when the Church itself (herself?) never required that of Catholic spouses. The only requirement was to agree to raise the children Catholic. And according to Carpenter, Tolkien apparently had little sympathy for or was unable to appreciate the difficulties Edith faced because of that decision.

I wonder whether Tolkien saw Edith's conversion as necesary in order to confirm her 'committment to the cause'. Certainly he seemed to consider Catholicism to be, if not the only, then definitely the best & purest form of Christianity (cf his disappointment when Lewis went back to the Anglicanism of his childhood rather than Catholicism - of course, he didn't have the same leverage with Jack as he had had with Edith )

[Lalwendë]

I think it is not entirely surprising that Tolkien was an ardent Catholic, seeing as his guardian as a child was a priest; not only that, but his mother's conversion and consequent struggle seems to have acquired mythical status. I also think that his request that Edith convert must have been partly due to keeping his guardian happy; it would have been the 'done thing' in his mind. Maybe had he been ten years older when he married he might have been less insistent.

Having had two grandmothers who were raised as Catholics and who 'became' Anglicans at marriage, I know for a fact that conversion may be an act put on to appease a partner, as one Grandmother remained in her heart a Catholic (and was buried with Rosary beads, in an Anglican graveyard). My point being that the Church a person outwardly belongs to is not necessarily all that important and other factors have a bearing.

Ronald Hutton raised the point that Tolkien himself seemed to allow his faith to lapse during the 20s and 30s, not going to mass or confession. He clearly had his own reasons for this, but it suggests that he may not have always been the devout Catholic we take him to be. Therefore, we might place too much importance on his Catholicism.

I think that rather than his Catholicism having a bearing on how he created and developed the Legendarium, it might be more appropriate to look at his own morals and how they came to bear on it. His Catholicism definitely shows through in some aspects (and I also think that in SOWM, in the light of what we now know about it, reference to his Catholicism is very appropriate), but his morals (wherever they may come from, Catholicism, Christianity as a whole, upbringing, experience etc.) are the larger influence.

I find that SOWM is different to the other texts as it seems to have hidden subtexts which have clear spiritual messages, whereas in LotR, The Sil etc., he has created something more self contained, with a morality and spirituality which can be understood without reference to his own beliefs. SOWM, on the other hand, is improved by application of other information.

[Amanaduial the archer]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

What interests me is why Fairies were ever perceived as dangerous. The natural world at one time presented greater dangers than it does today

Why are children afraid of the dark? Fear is not always rational; indeed, more often than not it is irrational – a fear of tiny, harmless spiders or grass snakes is hardly uncommon. Yet the unknown, even for the most rational of beings, has always presented a challenge to humans – space, darkness, science…fairies. They are an unknown quantity, and in times when people were far more superstitious and belief in such beings was far more widespread, certainly tales of fairies were not always of benevolent creatures ‘bestowing powers’ – the Morrigan, for example, a figure of Irish Mythology, has been described by some as a kind of fairy, yet by others she is likened to a hag, a crone, a witch, even a devil-like/ ‘wicked’ character. Certainly not someone you want to meet on a dark night. And the tales of fairies were so elaborated over time – from peasant storytelling, into folk-lore, and even into the works of essayists and scholars, and telling of everything from through kidnap, mutation, bearing illnesses, or simply playing havoc with the every day lives of humanity – that it is easy to see why fairies, this unknown, changeable quantity, were feared. Indeed, they were considered even to be part of the natural world, and were worse than animals in some respects because they had that one thing over animals that made they all the more terrifying because it is the one thing that we as humans have over the animal world: intelligence which is far more than simply instinct. They have this, as well as the power of the natural world – and when you consider the power that this gives them, the consequences could be pretty scary.

This idea of the ‘unknown’ is retained to some extent, in the reactions of other characters to the elves: they are wondering and even a little afraid of these creatures who seem so ‘noble’. There is much Men do not seem to know about the race of elves (with the exception of Aragorn, naturally), and this causes fear and even distrust.

Earlier in the thread, the mention of Angels came up – the traditional, religious sense of angels, that is. This is a particularly interesting point, especially in relation to Tolkien’s elves. Consider: they are immortal and do not age, they cannot catch disease, they are incredibly wise, and what is more, they have some knowledge beyond that of men into Eru – who is basically a God-figure, the creator of Arda (although for a deeper discussion on that, consider Fordim’s ‘Is Eru God’ discussion! ). What is more, they are beautiful and glorious to the eyes of men. These are all angelic traits, traditionally. Even the idea that elves and humans could come together and have children is one that fits: in Genesis, angels and the ‘daughters of men’ had children, the Nephilim, who “were the heroes of old, men of renown.” (sorry, that was a slight deviation, admittedly). So maybe Tolkien’s elves are more reminiscent of the Judeo-Christian angels rather than of traditional ideas of fairies. However…the two ideas are not mutually exclusive: in Elizabethan times, there were two main theories on fairies (which Shakespeare especially took into consideration in his writing of such fairy characters as Puck in ‘A Midsummer Night’s Dream’ and Ariel in ‘The Tempest’), one classifying them into folklore ideas of nymphs, driads, fauns etc – and the other considering them to be fallen angels. Tolkien even, in one of his early works, refers to “The Holy fairies and immortal Elves” on this subject, and they are related to heavenly ideas such as the stars – the name Eldar, for example, and the roles of Galadriel and Arwen ‘Evenstar’. So maybe the similarities between Tolkien’s elves to fairies could also be a comparison to angels…?

However, this does naturally present a few problems – such as the slightly glaringly obvious fact that the fallen angels were those who fell with Lucifer and were therefore against God rather than with him. Bother. However…maybe this was intentional on Tolkien’s part, to give the elves something more of humanity? After all, for all their loftiness, their distance, their mystery, the elves are still, at heart, very human creatures.

[davem]

The Elves of BoLT were quite 'Angelic'. It seems they were to represent ideal beings, the teachers of Mankind through Aelfwine/Eriol. Its only over time that they develop increasingly negative traits: they become 'embalmers', etc. Yet they never move completely away from Tolkien's original conception. Hence, they remain moral beings. The Fairies of tradition are amoral.

[littlemanpoet]

In some traditions, including early English ones, some of the angels exiled from Heaven with Satan became devils, but others, more undecided or more neutral, became elves. At Judgement Day some of these may regain forgiveness and salvation and return to their old home, as Galadriel does at the very end of The Return of the King. This still does not make Galadriel into an angel, even in the sense of a messenger, in the way that Gandalf is; but one can imagine how a human being, looking back at the events of the Third Age and the First Age 'from a historical distance', .... could be confused, could put together Galadriel the Noldo exiled by the Valar and Gandalf the Maiar sent by the Valar (both of them allowed in the end to return) and no longer be able to see much difference.

Tom Shippey, from J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century

[Amanaduial the archer]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Tom Shippey, from J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century

Thank you. You have no idea how much you may have just helped me with me English Literature coursework