What if Lúthien had been "ugly"?

[Maédhros]

In the Silmarillion we have:

It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren came stumbling into Doriath grey and bowed as with many years of woe, so great had been the torment of the road. But wandering in the summer in the woods of Neldoreth he came upon Lúthien, daughter of Thingol and Melian, at a time of evening under moonrise, as she danced upon the unfading grass in the glades beside Esgalduin. Then all memory of his pain departed from him, and he fell into an enchantment; for Lúthien was the most beautiful of all the Children of Ilúvatar. Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven, but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening; her mantle was sewn with golden flowers, but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight. As the light upon the leaves of trees, as the voice of clear waters, as the stars above the mists of the world, such was her glory and her loveliness; and in her face was a shining light.

I know that elf are supossed to be beautiful and stuff but just for a moment think that if Lúthien weren't as beautiful as she was or even "ugly", would Beren had been enchanted by her? Was his love for her because of her unsurpassing beauty? Or was it something beyond that?

Then the spell of silence fell from Beren, and he called to her, crying Tinúviel; and the woods echoed the name. Then she halted in wonder, and fled no more, and Beren came to her. But as she looked on him, doom fell upon her, and she loved him; yet she slipped from his arms and vanished from his sight even as the day was breaking.

She loved him from the start, I wonder would he have loved her if she was "ugly"?

[Reyna Evergreen]

Elves were meant to be the most beautiful and graceful creatures of Middle-earth, there was no such thing as an "ugly" elf.

But if there was such a thing, nope, I really don't think that Beren would have fallen into the "enchantment" of Luthien if she were an "ungly" elf. I serioulsy doubt it. Think of it as Viggo Mortesen (dunno how to spell his last name...sry) or Orlando Bloom falling in love with an anti-super-model, you know?

In any case, elves were all beautiful so no need to worry, see? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Susan Delgado]

I disagree, Reyna. It was the circumstances under which he met her that captured him, not her superficial appearance: it was the enchantment of her dancing in the moonlight.

[arelendil]

i think that the whole love at first sight thing is under-rated. Isn't their a side of you that wants to believe? May be it was fate, and they had no choice. for the whole of middle earth is under the control of the Valar!

[Kuruharan]

I'm afraid that I'll have to go with the jaded, cynical view and say that he would not have been "enchanted" by Luthien. Yes, her "inner beauty" was important, but well...you know how guys are. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

(I can't help it that I have such a jaundiced view of reality [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Good point Kuruharan! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

She was probably beautiful and if she wasn't I would have to say that he wouldn't have fallen in love with her. He couldn't have possibly known that she was a beautiful person inside just by looking at her. And her beauty made him come to her. THEN after all that, they got to know each other, he found out that she was a wonderful person, blah blah, etc.

Think of it as Viggo Mortesen (dunno how to spell his last name...sry) or Orlando Bloom falling in love with an anti-super-model, you know?

No thanks, I don't want to think of Viggo with someone else!! (yes, pathetic as that may seem [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Maédhros]

Sadly me too would have to concur that Beren wouldn't have fallen in love with her. It's a guy thing.

[Galorme]

Tolkien writes, in many ways, about an ideal world, especially in the First Age. In this ideal world all "good guys" are honourable and kind hearted, and all bad guys are wikick and deceitful. Also in this ideal world a beautiful spirit goes hand in hand with a outer beautiful. If anyone in ME is ugly it is because they are ugly inside as well. So if you were somehow to strip Lúthien of her beauty, when Beren found her he would have thought she was ugly inside as well, as that is how it worked in the mythology. So the answer is no, he would not have fallen for her.

[the phantom]

Great point Galorme! Inner beauty was often connected with outer beauty. I'm also perfectly willing to admit the shallowness of my gender and say that Beren would not have been enchanted by Luthien. Any other thoughts, or perhaps rebukes from some female members of The Downs?

[Melephelwen]

I don't think I'm saying anything new, but no... Beren wouldn't have fallen straight in love. The dancing in the moonlight thing might make him fascinated of that 'ugly' looking Elf, but he wouldn't fall in love until he knew her better... poor Luthy, if her love wasn't returned [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Elrian]

Luthien had quite a voice though, and if she could sway some Valar, she surely could have snared a mere mortal with it.

[Kuruharan]

Well, yeah. Maybe so long as he could not see her. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] She could do the whole disguise herself with her hair thing, perhaps?

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Galorme]

"Beren was enchanted by the soft, beautiful music and the enchanting dancing of the elven maiden. He called her, shouting "Tuniviel", but she ran. He gave chase, but she ran as swift as a fowl in flight from a hunter. She hid in the long grass, and Beren looked for her in vain. Then fate interviened, and his arm brushed hers, and she turned. Their eyes met...

'UGGHHH YUCK YUCK YUCK!' cried Beren in disgust"

You never know...

[Maédhros]

'UGGHHH YUCK YUCK YUCK!' cried Beren in disgust"

Dude, that's kind of mean, but I supose it was possible.
I think that it depends if you believe in the "Power of Love".
Listen to me, I sound like my pal FF.

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[Niphredil Baggins]

I strongly suggest all ugly women and others who cannot identify with Lúthien to read a book by Barry Hugart: The Bridge of Birds.

I can't tell who the ugly woman is, but if you read you'll see. It's a wonderful book, a fantasy about ancient China.'

P.S. I'm not talking about the Ancestress. she's a shelob.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

If Luthien had happened to be a bit more, shall we say, Reubenesque, there would have been a lot of fun to be had with her good voice. "Damn." said Beren "Over already and not an enemy in sight, which means it's going to be pneumonia or something. I bloody hate opera."

On the other hand, one might as well ask: "Would Gandalf have been so important if he'd been stupid?" or "If Aragorn were a coward, would he have been King of Gondor?" or even "What if Beren had been pale, pigeon-chested, knock-kneed and short-sighted, with a penchant for painting bad watercolours?"

What if they'd both been ugly? That's the burning question here in Reading. Inquiring minds want to know!

[The Silver-shod Muse]

If Luthien could shape-shift into a bat, who's to say she couldn't make herself stunningly beautiful? Maybe she wasn't originally drop-dead gorgeous, but she used her powers to improve her charm and good looks. Okay, so maybe not, it was just an idea... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Eol]

Tolkien writes, in many ways, about an ideal world, especially in the First Age. In this ideal world all "good guys" are honourable and kind hearted, and all bad guys are wikick and deceitful. Also in this ideal world a beautiful spirit goes hand in hand with a outer beautiful. If anyone in ME is ugly it is because they are ugly inside as well. So if you were somehow to strip Lúthien of her beauty, when Beren found her he would have thought she was ugly inside as well, as that is how it worked in the mythology. So the answer is no, he would not have fallen for her.

this maybe true is you chose to look at the movies and visual interperations. However, if you read the books without those in mind you find a lack in discription of ugly people with ugly personalities. I Think Tolkien did this on purpose as to get away from the hidious monster with evil plots. Look as Feanor for instances, beautiful elf, yet he get himself into trouble with his pride!

Think on that and read through some of the stories both LOTR and even the Silmarillion and you can see this thought pattern. Not every person who is ugly has an ugly disposition and not every beautiful person is beautiful inside. Nor do they remain the same throughout their lifespand.

[Galorme]

Maybe it would be better to say that all Species have beauty relating to their goodness. All the Maia who fell at the beggining were, if not ugly, terrible to behold. All elves are supposed to be uncorruptable (at least in their current state) and they are beautiful. The men with pure spirits (the Faithful) were fair. The only exception is that both good and evil can, at times, apear "Young, fair and terrible" (Galdriel, Morgoth, the men of Westenesse after their fall). Also evil can seem fair if they are deceitful.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

"Terrible" isn't necessarily ugly though. Corruption is visible in people's demeanor, and it makes them terrible to behold, but they aren't necessarily "ugly" in the sense of the word that involves irregularity of features and/or uncomeliness.

[Maédhros]

There isn't an ugly born elf, but what about elves who were captured and totured by Morgoth.

Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but Túrin did not perceive what had befallen. And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent. But Gwindor sat in dark thought; and on a time he spoke to Finduilas, saying: 'Daughter of the house of Finarfin, let no grief lie between us; for though Morgoth has laid my life in ruin, you still I love.

I wonder if Findulias stopped loving Gwindor, then is it not possible that Beren could not have loved Lúthien if she were not as beautiful as she was?

[Belin]

Heh. I've actually always wondered how he could tell that her eyes were gray as she danced in the moonlight, but there's no point in quibbling with the text, is there?

I agree with many that her voice also played a very important role in enchanting Beren. Her physical beauty clearly mattered-according to the Silmarillion, he first saw her after wandering through the mountains (not just beauty, but beauty after ugliness--I tend to agree with Susan that much of the enchantment was situational) and it was this that caught him at first and made him follow her, and he didn't hear her singing until spring. However, as soon as she sings, the kind of love involved changes. Before he hears her singing, he is simply following her entranced and silent. I almost want to compare her to some kind of natural power rather than a human being that he could love in the way we're thinking--I've wandered after the moon like that on occasion, for example (although I admit that in my case this usually only lasted for a few minutes). After she sings, "the spell of silence fell from Beren," and he's able to rename her, speak to her, and be loved by her. The voice is hugely important, I think.

Maedhros, I'm not sure I see the connection there. Could you elaborate?

...and while we're on the subject, why did she fall in love with Beren? He certainly wasn't looking his best. Or was his spirit shining through, the way I'd like to say hers was (and possibly creating or at least adding to her beauty?) ?...

--Belin Ibaimendi

EDIT: After thinking about it a little more carefully, I have realized that it's pretty strongly implied that fate played a role in their meeting; maybe none of their attributes mattered crucially. If Luthien had been ugly, perhaps Beren would have been blind.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[Evisse the Blue]

It's nice to think they were soulmates, and their beauty/courage/race didn't matter.
On the other hand, I believe that Tolkien is one of those guys who thinks that a woman's beauty is her strongest point. Oh, well-so do most fairy tale writers.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I believe that Tolkien is one of those guys who thinks that a woman's beauty is her strongest point. Oh, well-so do most fairy tale writers.

Gasp and horror! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]! Surely you don't believe that?! Look at Eowyn! Sure, she was pretty, as princesses go, but she had some guts to stand up to the Witch-king of Angmar for crying out loud, and fight him in hand-to-hand combat! Tolkien knew that women are people too, and that looks aren't everything.

[Maédhros]

Maedhros, I'm not sure I see the connection there. Could you elaborate?

Elaborate on what? I'm not quite sure as to what you're referring.
My original intention was: If Lúthien weren't as beautiful as she was, would Beren had fallen in love with her. I pose this because in the case of Findulias, when Gwindor returned from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad with Túrin to Nargothrond, she stoped loving him and then she turned her love to Túrin. That happened because of the tortures that he suffered while in the service of Morgoth.
Is the physical apperance that important for Beren too?

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[Evisse the Blue]

Muse - I have the unpleasant feeling that if Eowyn weren't beautiful, the effect of her going to battle would've been less powerful.
This goes not only for Tolkien himself, but also for his readers. u can call me cynical...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I pose this because in the case of Findulias, when Gwindor returned from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad with Túrin to Nargothrond, she stoped loving him and then she turned her love to Túrin. That happened because of the tortures that he suffered while in the service of Morgoth.

Perhaps there was a psychological change wrought by those tortures that adversely affected his personality. It would seem more than a little shallow to turn from him just because he wasn't a fashion plate any longer.

[ August 11, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[Eol]

I would have to agree with squatter. Tragic events WILL change people. My brother was in a car wreck, he walked away with mild brain damage to his short term memory.

His personality changed and his relationship with his other brother became astranged. It is still really unknown why, but I think it had to do with the personality change. Before the accident, he was different( it has been so long now I cannot recall) now he is passive, emotional and under heavy stress becomes forgetful.

In conclusion, Gwindor went through a serious transformation and it affected his personality and did affect his relationship with his lady friend. It is your guess how, but I feel it goes far beyond physical appearance.

[ August 11, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That's a very sad story, Eol. I'm sorry to hear of it.

I think that the fact that the tortures of Morgoth cause pain long after the incarceration of the victims is over, thus perpetuating themselves, is one of his greatest evils. How he must have laughed at Finduilas and Gwindor.

[Eol]

Squatter: it is fine. Because of it, my brother and I are closer then ever before.


Morgoth must a VERY bored and LONELY boy...

[onewhitetree]

Luthien's fate was tied up in her beauty. It was as much a part of her as her voice, her mind, her spirit, et al. If she had not possessed all of these traits, she simply would not have been Luthien.

Speaking of fate, she and Beren were fated to be together. Just think of the impact their relationship had on ME. So speculating on "what if" situations isn't really relevant at all. Luthien and Beren both were made exactly as they were for a purpose.

[Thulorongil]

Even though Luthien was definitely written to be beautiful, looks shouldn't have to do with true love like that of Beren and Luthien. She very well couldn't have been.

Besides, Arwen was supposed to "walk in the likeness" of her so................

[Kettle of fish]

I think Luthien's beauty contributed to why she was the favourite of the Elves. People are drawn to beauty.